Posted on 11/18/2002 8:04:41 AM PST by american colleen
Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Jhn 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
At NO point did Jesus correct her..in fact he expanded on her words..
To assume that she had an incomplete revelation is to imply that Jesus would allow her to remain in a lie..
Now please tell me how it is that you write off her words as pre Olivet discourse but believe there will be sacrifices in the Temple in the millennium? A bit inconsistant isn't it?
To assume that she had an incomplete revelation is to imply that Jesus would allow her to remain in a lie..
Nice post and very true. I just happened to read the last few posts on this thread and yours struck a chord with me because I wonder why you do not allow the same reasoning in the Gospel of John, Chapter 6, when He allowed those disciples to walk away in disgust from Him. He said "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." He did not correct those who were disgusted by the thought of eating His flesh, the ones who said, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" - no, in fact, He expanded on His teaching by saying, "Amen, Amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within you." - this to people who were already disciples of His, who already followed His Word, but who now walked away in disgust at the thought of eating His body and drinking His blood.
Morally, if He knew the disciples were misunderstanding His words, as you cite with Martha, He should have corrected their understanding and said "No, No, I didn't really mean you had to eat my flesh and drink my blood!" But he did not correct them. They walked away because they did not understand and did not believe He could give His flesh and blood for us to eat and drink. --"Take and eat; this is my body."
The convolutions you have to go through to deny the plain words of Christ!
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 12 is about the crucification
Jhn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
Jhn 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
The word used is PAS in Greek..it does not mean an unlimited all of every kind..or else you would have to believe that the cow worshipers are also saved Colleen
The all Jesus is talking about is the all that the Father gives Him
On the idea of Him meaning the Trinity it is an error to read it that way..A clear reading of Scripture shows that each member of the trinity has a seperate role..The Father is the creator , Jesus is the Savior and judge, and the Holy Spirit is the comforter and convicts us of our sin and leads us into all truth...The Father as the creator gives the creation to the son..the Son saves and returns them to the Father.,..
Sounds like an extra-biblical man made tradition to me.
I just go by the plain words of the bible. Couldn't find the word "sovereignity" anywhere in John 6.
No transubstantiation either Colleen..but if you read John 6 it is all about the work of the Father
Does this chapter say that anyone eating bread is saved? Does it say that bread saves?
Colleen I believe Jesus is the bread of life. I believe that it is necessary to eat THAT bread which is Jesus to be saved
Jesus said He was the manna that saved the Jews as they wandered..he said I AM that bread
740 artos {ar'-tos} from 142; TDNT - 1:477,80; n m
AV - bread 72, loaf 23, shewbread + 4286 + 3588 4; 99
1) food composed of flour mixed with water and baked
1a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong or round cake, as thick as one's thumb, and as large as a plate or platter hence it was not to be cut but broken
note that Jesuis body was not broken on the cross
1b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord
1c) of the bread used at the love-feasts and at the Lord's Table
2) food of any kind
Jesus was and is the bread of life..we have no disagreement on that ..we differ on the main point of the discourse and if Jesus was talking about actually eating his flesh or if He was saying that He is symbolized by the consecrated show bread..He is holy and consecrated ..and it is he that gives us life, as he did their ancesters
But the message he gave that they did not want to hear was that they could not save them selves..that salvation was all of God
Colleen does all always mean all without exception?
Right, but that is not all the crowd heard. The crowd heard that Jesus said His flesh was the "bread of life" and that they "had to eat His flesh" -- and those that murmured among themselves and were disgusted by the thought of eating His flesh walked away. And He let them. He did not call them back and explain that he was kidding or that he was using the words symbolically.
Colleen does all always mean all without exception?
It does unless He says it doesn't.
If you go to a party at church and you come home and tell your husband that everyone was there...he will understand you do not mean everyone in the world without exception , he will understand that you mean everyone (all) the people from your church or club were there
All is used in scripture in much the same way..to mean all of a subset..Jesus set the subset in John 6..all the Father gives to Him
... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody?
The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption
Colleen if you really believe that Jesus meant all without exception then you believe in Universal salvation ...do you believe that the cow worshippers and athethists are saved . Is that what you believe?
No Trinity either Terry. The entire bible is about the work of the Father.
Does this chapter say that anyone eating bread is saved? Does it say that bread saves?
Yes. "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and that bread that I give is my flesh for the life of the world."
Colleen I believe Jesus is the bread of life. I believe that it is necessary to eat THAT bread which is Jesus to be saved
No. If you believed His words you would be either Catholic or Orthodox.
Jesus said He was the manna that saved the Jews as they wandered..he said I AM that bread
No. He says He is the bread of Life. He tells them that their ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died. He is not that bread. He says He is the bread that comes [notice it is not CAME] down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
I also love part where He says "Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from Him comes to Me."
Jesus was and is the bread of life..we have no disagreement on that ..we differ on the main point of the discourse and if Jesus was talking about actually eating his flesh or if He was saying that He is symbolized by the consecrated show bread..He is holy and consecrated ..and it is he that gives us life, as he did their ancesters
Jesus never mentioned the word "symbolized" anywhere. In fact, He is very direct. Truly, Truly, Amen, Amen -- no symbols. He did not give their ancestors life - they ate the manna and died anyway. He is not that manna. He does not say He was that manna.
But the message he gave that they did not want to hear was that they could not save them selves..that salvation was all of God
No one, not the disciples and not Jesus Himself mention anything about anyone saving themselves. You are inserting words into the scripture. You shouldn't do that, you are changing the plain meaning of God's Word.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."
Mark 14:22-24 - While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body." Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many."Matt 26:26 - While they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Luke 22:17, 19-20 - Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves; ... Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."
1 Cor 11:23-26 - For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
Terry, please don't be blind and deaf! Don't you see the connection? Don't you hear what He said?
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