No-Kneeling Rule Sparks Widespread Outcry

National Catholic Register ^ | Sept. 29-Oct. 5, 2002 | JOHN BURGER

[NCLou]

When they pulled it in my parish last Lent, I had no idea what was going on. I hadn't seen it in all my years. They acted like it was always done, but I swear it was new.

Are there any conservative-minded Catholics in the Atlanta area that have found a Novus Ordo Mass that is not out and out offensive? I don't mind going to the Novus Ordo, as that is what I grew up with, but the presentation gets worse and worse all the time and more disrespectful of Christ, no matter how many parishes I try.

It looks like its Latin or nothing for me at this point.

[Desdemona]

I don't mind going to the Novus Ordo, as that is what I grew up with, but the presentation gets worse and worse all the time and more disrespectful of Christ, no matter how many parishes I try.

It looks like its Latin or nothing for me at this point.

I'm somewhat in the same boat. The closest Latin Mass to me is at 10 am in Soulard just south of Downtown St. Louis. It's about 20 minutes to half an hour highway driving. It happens that my church job starts at 10 or 10:10 on Sunday morning. So I go to 9 at the parish between me and my job. If the music problem would go away, this parish would be just fine. Nice and conservative. The liberals have fled to the social justice club parishes in the bad neighborhoods. I think if push came to shove the pastor at this parish would go back to using the Communion Rail in a heartbeat.

Growing up, I really never saw a Communion Rail used until we moved to the east coast for a while. I actually liked it better, and then a new pastor ripped it out.

[Sursum Corda]

And around and around you go, never responding to a direct question.

From what I have read of your posts, this is also 'normative'. ;-)

Sursum Corda

[Loyalist]

What does the Vatican propose in a parish of 7500 average Mass attendance on Sundays and one priest?

If people examined their consciences better and understood the Church's traditional teaching on the disposition necessary to receive Communion, the Communion lines would be much shorter.

[NCLou]

I shouldn't complain too much, a lot of Catholics aren't fortunate to even have access to the Latin Mass, but mine is a good 50 minutes away. Of course, I know of people that drive hours to go every Sunday.

My most recent parish seems conservative in how they celebrate the Mass (at least relative to others), and the homilies are generally non-offensive. But like yours, the music is the worst. The responsorial psalm has had all pretense dropped as to be a psalm, and is now one guy singing his best improvisational blues. The other music is folk, or what I would expect to be in a Pentacostal church. It really is embarassing, and

It's really crazy in the South, the Catholic churches try so hard to be Protestant, that I don't even know why they bother. The inconvenient little thing called the Eucharist seems to be the only vestige of Catholic doctrine or tradition left, and I don't doubt they would eliminate that if they could think of a way.

[Desdemona]

But like yours, the music is the worst. The responsorial psalm has had all pretense dropped as to be a psalm, and is now one guy singing his best improvisational blues.

We kind of lucked out here. Psalms are required to be Responsorial, preferably either chant or psalm tones. The problem is that midwesterners have lazy tongues and, even with mikes, you can't understand a word. All the Jesuit folk music started here, so weaning people off of it hasn't been easy. I prefer the organ, but alas, at 9 the guy plays piano.

The other music is folk, or what I would expect to be in a Pentacostal church. It really is embarassing

It is embarassing, that's for sure. And that so many Catholic musicians are working in the protestant churches should be a source of shame.

[sinkspur]

If people examined their consciences better and understood the Church's traditional teaching on the disposition necessary to receive Communion, the Communion lines would be much shorter.

Ah, yes. Would you reimpose the three hour fast as well?

Can't have too many folks receiving the Eucharist, can we? Those of you who would go every week could'nt preen, could you?

You must agree with another poster who recently joined this site ("Maximilian"), who maintains that 99% of all Catholics are in the state of mortal sin.

[sinkspur]

And around and around you go, never responding to a direct question.

Ask one that's not a "gotcha", and I'll answer it.

[sinkspur]

And that so many Catholic musicians are working in the protestant churches should be a source of shame.

Catholics are skin-flints. Most think that a couple of bucks thrown in the basket is "stewardship" because nobody has the guts to tell them otherwise. Half the Catholics in America would be run out of the Baptist Church for stinginess.

[Desdemona]

Half the Catholics in America would be run out of the Baptist Church for stinginess.

And they'll STILL balk at paying singers.

[nickcarraway]

My Grandfather, for one, can't kneel, so he doesn't, no problem.

[american colleen]

Can't have too many folks receiving the Eucharist, can we? Those of you who would go every week could'nt preen, could you?

That's kind of cold, sinkspur. I'm sure he is only concerned with the disposition of his brothers and sisters souls.... just like St. Paul said, and just as the Church teaches.

I guess you think it would be a bad idea to have priests and bishops preach on the power and efficacy and need of Confession?

[sinkspur]

That's kind of cold, sinkspur. I'm sure he is only concerned with the disposition of his brothers and sisters souls.

Loyalist's discouraging reception of the Eucharist. If I didn't know better, I'd swear he's discouraging it as a way to eliminate the widespread use of Eucharistic Ministers.

Adult Catholics will be called to account for their actions. I'm not in favor, as our newly-arrived Maximilian is, of condemning Catholics to hell while they're still alive. Nor am I, as Loyalist seems to be, in favor of wagging-fingers at fellow members of the Body of Christ.

I've got a big beam to get out of my own eye that will likely take the rest of my life.

[Loyalist]

The practice of frequent Communion has waxed and waned throughout Church history.

Frequent Communion was encouraged by Popes Leo XIII and Pius X during a period when a habit of excessive scrupulosity around concerning the reception of the Sacrament was common among Catholics in Europe. It was the right thing to do for the time.

Today, most people have lost a sense of sin and the need for sacramental Confession. There has also been a corresponding decline in belief in the Real Presence. The less internally disposed Catholics are to receive sacramental grace, the less efficacious the Sacrament is.

There is desperate need of proper catechesis on the subject, which hasn't been generally available for the past 35 years. Too many people just don't understand what statement they make by receiving Communion and the reproach of an unworthy Communion.

Obviously priests can't police everyone who goes up to receive Communion. That is something each individual must do, in examining his conscience, for himself.

[Maximilian]

>>It looks like its Latin or nothing for me at this point.

If you're in Atlanta, you're in luck. You seem to have one of the best indult Latin Mass communities in the US, St. Francis de Sales, run by the FSSP. The CTNgreg email list has several members from the parish and they are highly enthusiastic. Unlike most other indult situations, it's a real parish and not just 1 Mass on Sunday.

[Sursum Corda]

How is asking you why it is important to you that the Novus Ordo remains 'normative' a "gotcha"? It was in reference to your straight out statement to that effect which you offered early on in this exchange. You were plainly evasive. Any person who reviews the whole thread could see that. Why did you run when you were presented with an opportunity to expand on your own statements?

Oops! I asked you another direct question. Mea culpa. ;-)

Seriously, please don't play these games. It just wastes bandwidth and makes people think that you are not a serious individual, rather you make it so very easy to consider you a mere dilettante or even an obstructionist .

Sursum Corda

[sinkspur]

Seriously, please don't play these games. It just wastes bandwidth and makes people think that you are not a serious individual, rather you make it so very easy to consider you a mere dilettante or even an obstructionist .

You seem to be the only one who thinks I'm "playing games."

I'll put my bona fides as a "serious poster" up against yours any time.

If you think the Novus Ordo is not "normative" in the Roman Catholic Church today, then I suggest it is you who are not a serious individual.

[Maximilian]

>>I'm not in favor, as our newly-arrived Maximilian is, of condemning Catholics to hell while they're still alive.

Rather than "condemning" people to hell, which is God's job, I'm warning people that they are OBJECTIVELY in a state of sin. And that they are in danger of eternal damnation. There is no greater charity than saving a soul from hell.

If you want to read someone who REALLY gets into this topic, and especially related to the issue of receiving communion, try reading the Cure of Ars. We are reading his sermons before we say our family rosary, and he is one person you can count on to not pull any punches. He gives it to you right between the eyes.

If more priests copied his sermons instead of making up their own psycho-babble, we'd be reforming the Church, the way he reformed the Church in France after the devastation of the French Revolution. And, like Loyalist pointed out, we'd have no problem with excessively long lines for communion.

The grave sin here is PRESUMPTION. It is a huge problem for today's Church. Reading the Cure of Ars is the best cure. And speaking of hell, he personally suffered attacks from the devil that are frightening to read. Maybe that's why he was careful to avoid presumption (in its technical sense), and why he was so avid to save the souls of his parishioners.

[Sursum Corda]

Our Lady of Mount Carmel, in Littleton, CO ( on the southern edge of Denver) is a real parish too. We have our own church, rectory, parish hall, etc. We are also an FSSP apostolate. We have the privilege of the presence of two FSSP priests and the assistance of another wonderful priest, a Franciscan.

Archbishop Charles Chaput, OFM, Cap. Ordinary of Denver, dedicated our church a year ago this past September. He has been wonderfully supportive of our preferred 'use' of the Liturgy.

Despite the great distances many of us must drive to attend Mass and other non-liturgical functions, our community is truly vibrant.

We have a new Knights of Columbus Council, of which I am a member.

God bless to you and other faithful supporters of the FSSP.

Sursum Corda

[Maximilian]

>>You must agree with another poster who recently joined this site ("Maximilian"), who maintains that 99% of all Catholics are in the state of mortal sin.

Here's another cure for presumption (meaning unwarranted confidence in salvation), read this post:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/766975/posts

I guess it's no longer such a shock to think of a priest dying with unconfessed mortal sins on his soul. But it's a scary prospect that should alarm all of us.

Since this priest was admittedly lax with himself, I can imagine that he was lax with his parishioners as well. In fact, he says that Christ told him so to his face. I'll bet he's become a regular Cure of Ars today.

Thinking of our final end is the time-tested method to begin our spiritual life, a method endorsed by all the great saints. For most of us, that means contemplating imminent eternal damnation. Until we face that reality, we are only fooling ourselves about being Catholics, or even "religious."