Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

So you believe that all the dead are like God...omniscient and omnipresent?

Please give me some scripture on that OK?

By the theological virtue of Divine Faith

Where does faith come from?

The headless saints are in drawers under the altar, yet somehow they speak. It's a mystery.

his is a supernatural Gift of God which no human being can obtain on his/her own.

So then you agree with the Calvinists with predestination and election?

The problem with the answer it is "faith and trust" means there is no basis for the belief. The Mormons think their "Burning Breast " leads them to truth..the JW's take their doctrine on Faith..the Muslims are sure they are correct on faith

You have to have a basis for faith ..Faith does not save anyone... it is the object of that faith that saves..so how do you know that your faith is correct?

"Burning Breast"

B...

Bwa...

Bwahahahahaha

Song of Solomon 1:13 A bundle of myrrh is my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night between my breasts.

***When you read Revelation the picture is of all Gods creation worshiping at the throne.. not sitting by a "hotline" waiting for incoming calls***

Except for Telethon time each year. There's a really big budget to make!

I have to run - 3hours + of rehearsal tonight - but faith is part of salvation.

Except for Telethon time each year. There's a really big budget to make!

When is the last time I told you that you were nuts:>)

Do you think its possible?

So you believe that all the dead are like God...omniscient and omnipresent?

Of course, you know quite well that's not what I said.

Please give me some scripture on that OK?

Frankly, I've never seen a scriptural defense of sola scriptura that would satisfy anyone except those who take sola scriptura itself as a starting point.

In other words, sola scriptura is not scriptural.

I refuse to play on your false playing ground.

That is why I rarely if ever engage in proof texting here any more.

It just one YOPIOS against another.

Obviously, in the sola scriptura worldview there can be no definitive authoritative interpretation of scripture, only multiple competing interpretations, none of which is authoritative except in the mind that holds that personal interpretation of scripture.

So you have no scripture on your belief that the saints can hear and respond to the prayers of the living ..other than the Pope told me so?

"If Joe Smith said so, I believe it."

Where does faith come from? And are you sure it is only a "part" of salvation?

Talk later

Do you believe those outside the RC church will be saved?

I suppose the "RC church" means the Roman Catholic Church. Being of the Byzantine Rite, I find "Catholic Church" to be a better, as well as the more correct, descriptor. "Roman Catholic" means primarily the local Church at Rome, whose Bishop is the successor of St. Peter and therefore the visible head of the Catholic Church. Secondarily, it indicates Catholics who practice their Faith by the laws, customs, and Liturgy of the Latin Rite of the Church. These things develop and change over time - not the Faith!

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that She is the One Church founded by Jesus Christ upon His 12 Apostles with the promise of Divine protection and mission to proclaim the Gospel of Christ to the whole of Creation in it's fullness and entirety, leading Creation back to God. She is at once the mystical Body of Christ and His Bride. Christ is Her Head and the Holy Spirit Her Soul. She therefore can only but claim for Herself alone the ability to preach the Gospel in it's fullness and entirety of Divine Truth with no error. She, by Christ's will, also is given the ability to mediate Grace to us through the Sacraments, which are Christ's way of applying the fruits of His Redemption to us all through the ages.

She teaches that all are called to live in the Truth. Because Christ is united to Her such that He identifies Himself with Her, "Saul, Saul why do you persecute Me", and all Salvation comes to the world through Him, all people are obligated to be baptized in Her for Salvation upon discovery that She is God's Church (as well as Christ's explicit command in the Gospels). All are called to believe Her teachings, led and protected by the Holy Spirit, which must be without error. Otherwise, Christ would be a liar, and therefore not God, and Christianity a big waste of time.

While the Church Herself, which St. Paul finally "broke down" and called "a Mystery" after describing by analogy after analogy Her character, is spotless in Her Head Who is Christ, this is not true of the individuals here on Earth who constitute Her. Quite frankly, we are all sinners, who continue to struggle time and time again to keep from sinning, and, turning from God's Grace, sin again and again. Fortunately, if we keep getting back up to respond to His Grace and forgiveness, we hopefully continue to grow ever more closer to God. The Catholic Church does not teach that all Catholics automatically will go to heaven. They must strive to live in Grace wrought by the Redemption of Christ.

What about non-Catholics? Our separated brethren in other Christian communities such as the Orthodox, who have the same Faith as Catholics, and Protestants, who variously run the gamut of different additions, subtractions, and changes of the pure Faith given by Christ? What about those who don't believe in Christ at all?

It is a shame in the world today that Christianity is split up, making a mockery of Christ's Priestly prayer of unity in the Gospel of St. John. We Catholics see our separated Christian brethren as just that - separated Christian brethren. We recognize and share large stretches of our Faith together which overwhelms our various disputes. To the extent that we agree, Catholics recognize the Grace of God at work in our separated brethen - and others as well. Through the Holy Spirit, we Catholics know that full unity is obtainable and by the command of Christ should desire and work for this.

The Catholic Church teaches that all Salvation comes through Christ and therefore through Her - which is why He established Her in the first place. We believe that individuals, who through no fault of their own, do not belong to Her can be saved. This includes non-Christians. This does NOT mean that Salvation occurs without Christ. It means that in His mysterious ways He can always find ways to save people, defeating Satan. God wills that all men and women to be saved, "Your will be done...". This Salvation comes through Christ and is necessarily connected to His Church. Nobody is authorized by God to say who will and who won't be saved - that Judgement belongs to God alone.

As far as your question on whether or not can somebody be saved who doesn't hold all the teachings of the Church - well, I hope so! Not everybody is a theologian and, let's face it, among Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants alike, there are some weird and screwy understandings of the Faith and Scripture out there. There is a lot of ignorance as well. Think, do I know more about my Faith today than I did 5 years ago? Indeed, in the Middle Ages, there were theologians in the Church who, in terms of developing an understanding of the Faith with reason through the science of Theology, called into question the Immaculate Conception of Mary for a variety of reasons, not least of which are shared in a general way by many Protestants. This was the result of a normal development of the Church growing into a deeper understanding of the gift of Revelation given by God. Understand, the teaching had always been believed and celebrated in the Liturgies of both the East and West since the earliest Centuries. Understanding and applying how that teaching affected the lives of Christians was at stake. This is true for all the teachings of the Church. While nothing in Divine Revelation may be added, deleted, or changed, our understanding can, and is meant to, grow through the ages.

Seeeeeee that is faith.

Are Protestants a part of the catholic (universal) church?

Yes limited faith in a man.

Where does faith come from?

See my post # 296. Divine Faith is a supernatural gift from God!

Matchet-PI has made an art of polluting our threads with spam posts, and you have not taken him to task, so please humor me with this response to your question of scriptural support for the communion of saints. Its a simply cut and paste (yeah, the kind you abhor when Catholics do it but approve when your own do it):

The Mystical Body of Christ, according to Catholicism and universal Christian Tradition before the arrival of Protestantism in 1517, has three levels of existence, and communication and cooperation (in differing degrees) occurs between all of them. Those on earth invoke the prayers of the saints in heaven, honor them as glorified Christians and seek to imitate them. They also pray for the souls in purgatory. Those in heaven pray for the saints on earth and in purgatory. Those in purgatory can invoke the saints in heaven and pray for us struggling with the world, the flesh, and the devil. Protestants are inclined to think that scriptural evidences for the Communion of Saints are entirely lacking, but such is not the case.

1) The "Apocrypha" Perhaps the clearest proofs of this doctrine exist in the books known to Protestants as the "Apocrypha" (called "Deutero-canonical" by Catholics), which Protestants removed from the Bible (the first time this had happened in the history of Christianity). In 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 Jeremiah the prophet prays for the Jews centuries after his death (compare Jer 15:1), along with the deceased high priest Onias. Likewise, Tobit 12:1-22 (especially 12,15) presents Raphael the angel as one of the "seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints." Tobit 12:15 is apparently referred to in Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4, which speak of the "prayers of the saints" being offered to God, and in Rev 1:4, which mentions the "seven Spirits." There is plenty of proof, however, in Protestant Bibles, too:

2) Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace {be} unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne." {cf. Rev 3:1; 4:5; 5:6}

The seven angels participate in the giving of "grace" and "peace" by God, a principle anathema to Protestants. Some Protestant commentators, aware of a certain difficulty here for their position, seek to redefine the "seven Spirits" as the Holy Spirit, but a check with the cross-references above (inc. Tobit) make this implausible. Other commentators accept these spirits as the seven archangels of Jewish angelology, as indeed they appear to be.

3) Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer {it} with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. (4) And the smoke of the incense, {which came} with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

The saints (the 24 elders are usually regarded as dead Christians) and angels lay the prayers of the Christians on earth at the feet of God; that is, they are praying for them and acting as intercessory intermediaries. Thus, the propriety of invoking them logically follows from the plain fact of their intercession. This is identical to the Catholic teaching. Protestant commentaries scramble to come up with some alternate version of what is taking place here, straining at gnats, rationalizing, and splitting hairs. It is amusing to find that often these Protestant works will vehemently maintain that the Catholic view is definitely not taught in a particular Bible verse, while rarely offering a plausible or coherent alternate explanation!

Protestantism accepts the superior knowledge of angels and their ability to understand and influence our thoughts (see 1 Cor 4:9), yet illogically deny that we could ever ask them for their aid, since they construct a false dichotomy whereby invocation of any being beside God is somehow always and necessarily idolatrous. Here, in these passages, dead saints are also exercising the same function as the angels. Yet, if we can't ask either type of being for their intercession, it seems that we could not pray for each other either, since the "invocation" of a saint or angel simply means asking them for their prayers to God, not as beings who are capable of answering the prayers in and of themselves. The Protestant argument, then, proves too much and must be discarded.

4) Revelation 6:9-10 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" {cf. Zech 1:12}

These dead Christian martyrs are uttering what are known as "imprecatory prayers," pleas for God's judgment of the wicked and vindication of the righteous (e.g., see Ps 35;69;79;109;139; Jer 11:18 ff.; 15:15 ff.; 18:19 ff.; Jesus in Mt 26:53). Thus, dead saints are praying for Christians on earth, and, by logical extension, can be asked for prayers. They are aware of earthly events (Heb 12:1), and are more alive, unfathomably more righteous (Jas 5:16), and obviously closer to God than we are.

They need not be omniscient to hear our prayers, but merely out of time. It makes no less sense to ask for their prayers than to request those of any person on earth. In fact, the prayer above was answered by God who hastens the end of the age (8:1-5). Therefore, if the prayers of the Christians in heaven is so important in this instance, one can only imagine their immense weightiness in the overall scheme of things.

5) Matthew 18:10 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven."

The notion that every person has their own guardian angel, who has direct access to God, is strongly implied. If Jesus said He could have asked for the assistance of an angel (Mt 26:53) - and He certainly would not have been worshiping them in so doing - then we, who need their help infinitely more than He, can do the same without necessarily engaging in idolatry (anything can become an idol if we let it). Nor will it do for Protestants to equate the Intercession of the Saints with the communication with evil spirits by means of a medium or other occultic techniques. This is nonsense. The Communion of the Saints is nothing more than the recognition that saints after death (and angels) are more alive than us, aware of happenings on earth, desirous of aiding us, and able to be asked for help and to assist us with their prayer and intercession.

6) Dead Saints Appear on Earth to Interact With Men

Not only does God not want a prohibition of contact between saints in heaven and on earth, but He goes so far as to allow, on several occasions as recorded in the Bible, dead saints to return to earth for this very purpose! These are instances accepted by Protestants, but their implications are only fully developed within Catholicism. We find, for example, Moses and Elijah appearing on the Mount of Transfiguration to talk to Jesus, while Peter, James, and John were present (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31).

Likewise, the two "witnesses" of Rev 11:3-13 are saints who had come back to life, thought by many commentators to be, again, Moses and Elijah, and by others, Enoch and Elijah. Thirdly, the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him) appears in 1 Sam 28:7-20, as the great majority of commentators hold (the "Apocryphal" book Ecclesiasticus makes this clear - 46:13,20). "Many bodies of the saints" came out of their graves after Jesus' Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53). Lastly, Jeremiah returns to earth (2 Maccabees 15:13-16).

All of these occurrences involve long-dead figures (as op-posed to other resurrections such as Lazarus and Jairus' daughter), and demolish the notion of Protestantism that there is an unbridgeable gulf between heaven and earth - a sort of spiritual "Berlin wall." There is no such bridge, according to the Bible, because there is only one Church and Mystical Body of Christ, and death cannot affect the communion between its members of whatever estate. It's interesting to note that Moses and Samuel, who together appear in two and perhaps three of the five examples above, are renowned among Jews and Christians for their powerful intercession (Ex 32:11-12; 1 Sam 7:9; Ps 99:6; Jer 15:1 - implied after-death prayer).

In all cases, much communication takes place with people on earth. Samuel talks to Saul and Saul replies; Peter, James, and John may have heard Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus (it's unclear); the two witnesses prophesy for three and a half years (obviously including conversation), the resurrected saints of Mt 27 "appeared unto many," presumably talking with them as did Jesus in His post-Resurrection appearances; and Jeremiah spoke to Judas Maccabeus.

In light of these scriptural facts, how could anyone contend that God forbids such interaction, allowing only that between man and God, and men with men on earth? God could easily have disallowed any of these occurrences if they were indeed "contrary to the unique mediatorship of Jesus Christ." In conclusion, we find, then, that all the elements of the Catholic doctrines of the Communion of Saints are undoubtedly found in the Bible, and not just in the Deutero-canonical books, for all to see.