Posted on 09/14/2002 11:27:48 AM PDT by Itsfreewill
And that is my understanding, too, of what the EO church says...where we are expected to see ourselves as the worst of sinners.
No hank if it was against his nature he would have to work at it..he does not he loves his sin..
Well, that's what you say, but the Bible says:
Prov 13:15 ... the way of transgressors is hard.
And if it were not hard work to sin, why would coming to Jesus be considered rest?
Math. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
The Bible describes sin as slavery and servitude. Who loves being a slave?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If it was our nature to sin, it would be good for us to sin. It is my nature that requires me to eat. It is good for me to eat. It is my nature that requires me to breath. It is good for me to breath. But sin is bad for us, because it is contrary to the nature that God has given us. Everywhere the Bible teaches that sin is contrary to nature.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.
Sin is always "against" nature.
Rom. 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
So God says, men, by nature, have the law of God written on their hearts. Those who have God's law on their hearts do not hate it. The must choose to reject that law naturally written on their heart. To sin, a man must go against his own nature, the nature God gave him.
1 Cor. 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
The nature we are born with instructs us in righteousness. We have to reject it to sin.
This, mom, is what is so evil about sin. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, not because their nature makes them sinners, but because they wickedly choose to disobey, when God has made every provision, even in their nature, to prevent them from sinning.
If men were sinners because God made them that way, justice would require God provide a Savior. It is because men sin willing, against the nature God has provided that salvation is by Grace.
The "sinful nature" heresy turns everything on its head. It makes God responsible for sin, not man.
Mom, you believe little children are sinners because they were born that way. Jesus said, "... Verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat. 18:3
Hank
That was writen to the saved Hank...it was about the grace of God enabling the saved to perserve ...it was not about law keeping .Every good work is not perfect law keeping Hank
Well, first of all, I thought I was talking to someone that is saved. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Then you said: "it was not about law keeping." It isn't!? That what meaneth this:
Ro 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Are you an antinomian?
Hank
"The Lord does not say that it is blessed to know something about God, but rather to possess God in oneself." (Saint Gregory of Nyssa, about the 4th century.)
The EO church teaches, and I believe this also, that the possession of God within the mind and *heart* is the true knowledge of God. This could be what you are referring to as superstition?
I think this is a better explanation of where we stand in the EO church. :-)
From here.
And that is my understanding, too, of what the EO church says...where we are expected to see ourselves as the worst of sinners.
I have always wondered why most Christians who believe in the sinful nature do not see that it mitigates agains guilt. If it is the nature you are born with that is the cause of your sin, how can one be responsible for it. This reasoning does not work with them, however.
I'm glad to see you weren't offended by my frank expression regarding the EO view of faith. This raises a question in my mind. If you don't mind, what EO church are you associated with?
Hank
Yes, His nature was righteous, ours is not.
He's Eastern Orthodox. (shrugs) They've botched this one rather badly, I'm afraid (JMHO). See your #36... unresponded, as yet.
Ahhhemmmm.... lots of expositors have taught lots of different things.
The relevant question is will any Fallen Men ever Repent and Believe and Confess absent the prior Regeneration of their Spirits?
The Biblical Doctrine of Man is quite clear on the matter:
The Natural Man is evil and spiritually insane in his heart (Ecc 9) and can never perform the good (Jeremiah 13) and only chooses unrighteous choices (Isa 64) and will never come to the Light (John 3) and cannot receive the Spirit (John 14) and never actions righteous choices (Rom 3) and always and without exception wills Evil (Rom 7) and never selects the God-pleasing Choice (Rom 8) and cannot even understand the Gospel (1 Cor 2) and cannot confess Jesus as Lord (1 Cor 12).
Given, then, that this is the state of the unregenerate Man's heart according to every single passage concerning the Biblical Doctrine of Man, his heart must be unilaterally re-engineered by God in order to Repent.
Fortunately, God directs the hearts of Men in whatever direction He wants to turn them. (Proverbs 21:1)
I have heard the word "superstitious" before, and I can certainly see why it is common.
We attend primarily the American Orthodox church in Seattle, but we also attend here and there at the local Russian and Serbian churches. They are all one and the same except in language used, with the exception of some rare start-ups who like the sound of the word "orthodox" apparently.
I suspect many find that even when they repent and remain holy as best they are able, they discover later they have stumbled again, frequently willingly and foolishly into sin. BTW, not all sins are against 'nature'. There are also sins against the Creator and other persons, laws and objects.
Well RnMomof7 said:
Gen 5:3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Notice the children of Adam (us) were made not after the image of the Father from that day forward we were after the image of man. Which wild imagination is flatly contradicted by Paul.
1 Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
[Of course, since men are not longer in the similitude of God, but of men, go ahead an curse them all you want. (2 RnMomof7 3:6)]
No point in responding to the rest.
Hank
Rom. 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1 Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.
1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
(I am curious how you would interpret this last verse.)
Hank
Oh, you are so right. There is nothing better than having the time to be emersed in God's Word. It is what I always long for, just as you do. It is too bad we do not always have the time for it, but I willingly sacrifice other things for that opportunity.
By the way, do you watch TV?
Hank
On Genesis 5 Wesley says
Verse 3. Seth was born in the 130th year of Adam's life, and probably the murder of Abel was not long before. Many other sons and daughters were born to Adam besides Cain and Abel before this; but no notice is taken of them, because an honourable mention must be made of his name only, in whose loins Christ and the church were. But that which is most observable here concerning Seth, is, that Adam begat him in his own likeness after his image - Adam was made in the image of God; but when he was fallen and corrupted, he begat a son in his own image, sinful and defiled, frail and mortal, and miserable like himself; not only a man like himself, consisting of body and soul; but a sinner like himself, guilty and obnoxious, degenerate and corrupt. He was conceived and born in sin, Psalm li, 5. This was Adam's own likeness, the reverse of that Divine likeness in which Adam was made; but having lost it himself he could not convey it to his seed.
Matthew Henery notes
II. The birth of his son Seth, v. 3. He was born in the hundred and thirtieth year of Adam's life; and probably the murder of Abel was not long before. Many other sons and daughters were born to Adam, besides Cain and Abel, before this; but no notice is taken of them, because an honourable mention must be made of his name only in whose loins Christ and the church were. But that which is most observable here concerning Seth is that Adam begat him in his own likeness, after his image. Adam was made in the image of God; but, when he was fallen and corrupt, he begat a son in his own image, sinful and defiled, frail, mortal, and miserable, like himself; not only a man like himself, consisting of body and soul, but a sinner like himself, guilty and obnoxious, degenerate and corrupt. Even the man after God's own heart owns himself conceived and born in sin, Ps. 51:5. This was Adam's own likeness, the reverse of that divine likeness in which Adam was made; but, having lost it himself, he could not convey it to his seed. Note, Grace does not run in the blood, but corruption does. A sinner begets a sinner, but a saint does not beget a saint.
Calvin
Verse 3. And begat a son in his own likeness . We have lately said that Moses traces the offspring of Adam only through the line of Seth, to propose for our consideration the succession of the Church. In saying that Seth begat a son after his own image, he refers in part to the first origin of our nature: at the same time its corruption and pollution is to be noticed, which having been contracted by Adam through the fall, has flowed down to all his posterity. If he had remained upright, he would have transmitted to all his children what he had received: but now we read that Seth, as well as the rest, was defiled; because Adams who had fallen from his original state, could beget none but such as were like himself. If any one should object that Seth with his family had been elected by the special grace of God: the answer is easy and obvious; namely, that a supernatural remedy does not prevent carnal generation from participating in the corruption of sin. Therefore, according to the flesh, Seth was born a sinner; but afterwards he was renewed by the grace of the Spirit. This sad instance of the holy patriarch furnishes us with ample occasion to deplore our own wretchedness.
Hank we maintained our similariity to God, we are after all fashioned like Him in our tripart nature But Jesus said it well
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Hank that is whyt we need to be born again...that part of us that is made for eternity looks like Adam ...not like God..We need to be born again....
Well see that's what happens when you quote a bunch of men instead of Scripture.
I your quote were true, this verse would not be: Rom 5:20 ... where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.
Personally, I'll go with Scriputre. You can go with your theologians if you like.
Hank
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