Posted on 09/14/2002 11:27:48 AM PDT by Itsfreewill
Here's another doctrinal question for those who don't believe in an old sin nature.
I've answered all these questions in some detail in this thread. But I believe your questions is sincere, so here goes:
From Post 18, in answer to RnMomof7's question: certainly if there is no original sin someone other than Christ must have lived a sinless life...
So now you base your beliefs on a conjecture. But it is a false one. Adam and Eve, and all the angels were created sinless, and Adam and Eve, and probably 1/3 of the angels sinned. NONE had a sinful nature.
After the fall, man became "physcially" depraved, mortal, and subject to disease and easily inflamed desires in a world also under the curse. If man could not keep from sinning when in perfect health, in paradise, walking daily with God, why do you suppose he would be able to keep from sinning in such an imperfect state. Your assumption is completely baseless.
(Remember, temptation is not sin. After the fall, I believe temptation became much greater than before. I also believe that Jesus sufferred the same temptation, proving that a man could resist it if he chose to. However, Jesus is the only man who ever did resist it, and the only one that ever will.)
From Post #62 showing sin is against nature in answer to: No hank if it was against his nature he would have to work at it..he does not he loves his sin.
Well, that's what you say, but the Bible says:
Prov 13:15 ... the way of transgressors is hard.
And if it were not hard work to sin, why would coming to Jesus be considered rest?
Math. 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
The Bible describes sin as slavery and servitude. Who loves being a slave?
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If it was our nature to sin, it would be good for us to sin. It is my nature that requires me to eat. It is good for me to eat. It is my nature that requires me to breath. It is good for me to breath. But sin is bad for us, because it is contrary to the nature that God has given us. Everywhere the Bible teaches that sin is contrary to nature.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.
Sin is always "against" nature.
Rom. 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
So God says, men, by nature, have the law of God written on their hearts. Those who have God's law on their hearts do not hate it. The must choose to reject that law naturally written on their heart. To sin, a man must go against his own nature, the nature God gave him.
1 Cor. 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
The nature we are born with instructs us in righteousness. We have to reject it to sin.
This, mom, is what is so evil about sin. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, not because their nature makes them sinners, but because they wickedly choose to disobey, when God has made every provision, even in their nature, to prevent them from sinning.
If men were sinners because God made them that way, justice would require God provide a Savior. It is because men sin willing, against the nature God has provided that salvation is by Grace.
The "sinful nature" heresy turns everything on its head. It makes God responsible for sin, not man.
Mom, you believe little children are sinners because they were born that way. Jesus said, "... Verily I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat. 18:3
Finally, Post #96 to show the Jesus had exactly the same kind of nature as all other human beings, which is not a sinful one:
After all if he is EXACTLY like YOU He did not a divine nature..you too COULD have lived sinless had YOU chosen to right?
I did not say he was exactly like you. I said his human nature was exactly like all other human nature, because that is exactly what the Bible teaches.
Jesus was all man and all God. Any other view is considered heresy. Do you disagree with that?
Now, speaking for the moment about his human nature, that was exactly the same as any other human being's nature. If it was not, he was not ALL man.
All Calvinists are very close to holding the heresy that says Jesus was not really a man. But the Bible makes it clear that as a man, he had exactly the same nature we have.
Heb 2:10-18 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Consider:
"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one..." All one what? Why, one nature, of course, as is explained.
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." The same what? Why, the same flesh and blood with the same nature, because if it had a different nature, it would not be the same flesh and blood.
"he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. See, he's talking about nature here and plainly states that nature is the nature inherited from the SEED OF ABRAHAM. (Oh, yeah, almost forgot, you believe that seed is corrupt, I mean, sinfully. Can't be, else Jesus would not have inherited it.
"in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren." That's in ALL things, including their nature. Of course if it did not include their nature, He would only have made like his brethren in "some" things. That's what you believe, huh, Mom?
Rom. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
Phil. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
Here are two very interesting verses. They say Jesus was made "in the likeness of sinful flesh," and "in the likeness of men." Now you might want to get out of admitting the Bible teaches Jesus had the same kind of "sinful flesh" all other men have by claiming it says Jesus flesh was only "like" sinful flesh, but not really sinful flesh because is says "in the likeness of." If you do that, however, you are also going to have to say Jesus was only "like" a man, but not really a man because it says, "in the likeness of men." But of course you won't do that, because you know Jesus was a man and had exactly the same kind of nature all men have.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Jas 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
First, something about the word "lust." The word means "desire" and nothing more. It is the very same word used in Luke 22:15, "And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer, and could have rightly been translated, "... with lust I have lusted to eat this passover with you...."
With that understanding, we can see James is describing how all men are tempted. It begins with desire, not sinful or evil desire, but perfectly natural God-given desiress like the desire for food, or beauty, or comfort. Now these are the source of temptation, but not always, and even when they are, they are not sin.
The God-given natural desires for food, for beauty, and for knowledge Adam and Eve freely indulged and enjoyed in all the blessings of paradise, nevertheless those same desires became the source of temptation when their object was the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Was there anything evil about the desires? Of course not. Then how could indulging them be sin? Because indulging them required disobedience. The temptation consisted entirely of this, there was a desired object, there was the knowledge that the object was forbidden (and therefore it would be wrong to fulfill that desire), and they had the ability to choose. It was temptation because to not sin they had to choose what they knew was right against what they desired and wanted.
James explains that this is always how temptation works. Nothing has changed. All desires spring from our natures. (We only here refer to the natural passions, not "intellectual" desire based on values and goals. In themselves, these can never alone be the source of temptation, that is, if there is no accompanying desire in the "feeling" sense.)
When the object of those perfectly natural God-given desires are those things which one may rightly enjoy, fulfilling them is not sin, and is in fact their purpose. When the object of those same natural desires is for something forbidden, fulfilling the very same desire becomes sin. It is not the desire that makes it sin, but the object, and the fact that it is forbidden. (Sexual desire within marraige and outside of marraige is a typical example. The very same desire fulfilled within marraige is blessed, outside of marraige is sin.)
It is necessary to make this clear if we are to understand that Jesus was tempted in every way exactly the same as we are. If there is anything about our nature that makes temptation greater or different than it was before the fall, Jesus' nature must also have had this same difference, else he would not have been tempted, "in all points," and "like as we are." Since all desires spring from our natures, and all temptation is the result of desire, and Jesus was tempted in exactly the same way we are (or the whole thing is only a sham), He had to have the same kind of nature we have.
Finally we must examine this verse:
Rom. 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
I usually refrain from saying this, because it is so painfully obvious, I am embarrased to have to point it out. But, I think it is needed here.
This passage is frequently used to show that man has a sinful nature based on the idea that death is the result of sin, and since death is the result of Adam's sin, and death has passed on to all men (we are mortal), than sin must have passed on to all men as well, in what is called the "sinful nature."
On the basis of this view, every human death is proof of the sinful nature that man was born with. (I have actually seen this statement made.) Now, the obvious and absolute refutation of this is the fact that JESUS DIED.
To die, Jesus, had to have the same kind of nature we have, that is, not sinful, but mortal.
I have not come by the view that there is not a sinful nature lightly. It was Scripture that convinced, and the discovery the doctrine was the invention of Augustine, NOT the Bible. It is a terrible doctrine that makes God the author of sin and prevents men from knowing how wicked they really are. It is one thing to believe you are a sinner because you are born that way and really couldn't help it, it is the truth, you are a sinner because you wickedly chose to be one, and there is not excuse for it at all.
You also asked:
If you are Christian, why do you sin?
Does a Christian sin?
1 John 3:1-10 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I have tried to provide answers that would be useful to you. I am not trying to convince you. Most Christians believe in a sinful nature, and if you do, you have the comfort of knowing you have a lot of company, at least. I believe they are mistaken. I do not believe it makes them heretics, but I believe they would be much more useful to God if they did not hold the error.
Hank
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