Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[George W. Bush]

Equating ones millennial view with the Gospel is, IMHO, dangerous. Eschatology and Soteriology are worlds apart.

A sober pastoral observation.

...I continue to remain firmly in the "pan-millennial" camp, while still leaning to a Historical Pre-Millennial viewpoint.

Me too. And I observe that some of the premill literature like the Left Behind series may be entertaining but has virtually no value at all in spiritual growth. People seem to become so engrossed with them that they neglect the Bible itself.

That is why I come to appreciate even more the wisdom of the position of the Baptist Faith and Message: ...

Yep. Southern Baptists believe those plain promises and we don't generally squabble over how it will all be fulfilled. It is a matter of Christian liberty among sound Baptists, not a matter which requires doctrinal separation from opposing views.

In a purely practical sense, the various millennial views are not a part of our salvation. It's pretty hard to think that holding any of these millennial views leads anyone toward sin or presents any sort of obstacle toward evangelization.

[drstevej]

***Equating ones millenial view with the Gospel is, IMHO, dangerous. Eschatology and Soteriology are worlds apart.***

Add MHO (my humble opinion) to YHO (your humble opinion). Well said, thanks. Have a great, though busy, week.

[CCWoody]

Of course! I was lost in the Episcopal church for years before I met the Lord.

[CCWoody]

I find this an incredible post Woody ..You have posted with Jerry for years and you do not know if he presents the gospel correctly? You are a posting friend with Pastor Steve That is pride talking and walking guy...

No, sister, you are reading way to much into what I am saying. All I'm saying is that we are to preach the gospel and not force any of our eschatological presumptions into what the text says. I have never heard Jerry preach on such passages. So, why should I speak from ignorance saying that Jerry would never place any kind of a man teaching into the gospel. None of us is perfect and none of us completely understands all of the gospel so please lighten up a little.

I have actually heard pastors read from gospel passages and then say things like this is the preTrib rapture of the church.

[drstevej]

CCW: ***I was lost in the Episcopal church for years before I met the Lord.***

Drsj: The word "lost" here is not literal, as I interpret it. see, this dispensationalist, can spot figurative language. I didn't relly think you were saying that you roamed the halls of your church for years until you bumped into Jesus at the water cooler. :-)

[drstevej]

***I have actually heard pastors read from gospel passages and then say things like this is the preTrib rapture of the church.***

Do you mean passages in one of the four gospels, or passages that focus on the gospel?

John 14 speaks of Christ's return using the metaphor of the Jewish wedding custom of the groom preparing a place for his bride and returning to take her to be with him. The time of the groom's return was contingent upon the father's approval of the place prepared by the groom.

Is this the kind of thing you are referencing??? I wasn't clear.

[the_doc]

See Jean Chauvin's #1418.

See also my #1038 and #1074.

Historical theology does not really provide an endorsement of premillennialism--especially not the dispensational variety which has taken over today's largely apostate denominations.

[RnMomof7]

No, sister, you are reading way to much into what I am saying. All I'm saying is that we are to preach the gospel and not force any of our eschatological presumptions into what the text says. I have never heard Jerry preach on such passages. So, why should I speak from ignorance saying that Jerry would never place any kind of a man teaching into the gospel. None of us is perfect and none of us completely understands all of the gospel so please lighten up a little.
I have actually heard pastors read from gospel passages and then say things like this is the preTrib rapture of the church.

You said the amil was the gospel then you said it WAS not the gosepl ..then you equate it with the gospel when you say it would affect how your "FRIEND" preaches it. Go back and read Woody I did not ask HOW he teaches end times I asked if it influenced his presentation of the gospel...

No Woody the problem is I am reading your words back to you so you can hear them ....and you do not like them...I do not care WHAT you have "heard " other Pastors say or do..I asked if YOUR Pastor was apostate and taught a false gospel..I asked if Dr.Steve is apostate and teaches a false gospel, I asked if Jerry is apostate and He teaches a false gospel..I asked are we the believers in a false Gospel acuresed?

You are the one that calls this THE gospel and you are one of the ones that want to tell us what we must believe to have the "correct" gospel..

Why do you call me sister and them brother when we have a false gospel??

[ksen]

Me too. And I observe that some of the premill literature like the Left Behind series may be entertaining but has virtually no value at all in spiritual growth. People seem to become so engrossed with them that they neglect the Bible itself.

Not to mention the writing itself is pretty bad.

Yeah, I've read 'em. Can't help it, it's kind of like passing an accident on the highway, you can't help but look. ;^)

[George W. Bush]

What I’m thinking of is since God doesn’t live on a time frame he still has to translate his thinking to humans in a time frame. That was the reason for my interruption of the gathering of the wheat and tares. Salvation is talked about in a past, present and future tense within the Bible. Though I don’t know if it is ever talked about in all three tenses though in one place.

I think questions about whether God experiences time are unanswerable though I generally think that God is not subject to time and that it is a part of His creation. There are matters about the nature of God that cannot be discovered in this life. What the Bible teaches us is the history of God's dealings with man and the nature of our relationship to God and what He expects of us. And that is plenty for creatures like ourselves to deal with.

Potter. Clay.

[RnMomof7]

Of course, a man that is preTrib can be saved. However, a man that is preTrib can also deceive someone into thinking that he will believe when the saints are gone and he will use his 7 years. So, in this sense, the preTrib eschatology can be presented as a false gospel.

You have not responded to my question Woody?? If a pastor teaches a pre trib rapture (that neither Jerry or I believe in...but for discussion sake)

Do you believe that hearting THAT message may make an elect man or woman refuse the gospel so they can have a greater season of sin? Can an elect man or woman be deceived that they would REFUSE regeneration and refuse repentance?

Can the elect of God be deceived and drawn away form God?

You are reminding me of drot that used to say Calvinists CAUSE people to be lost because of Calvinism ,that they might believe they are too sinful to be the elect...that was a silly argument and to be honest I thing this is a silly argument..

Please clarify what you meant if I have it wrong

[RnMomof7]

make that hearing not hearting :>)

[George W. Bush]

Yeah, I've read 'em. Can't help it, it's kind of like passing an accident on the highway, you can't help but look. ;^)

I borrowed the first one and read it. I considered it the height of Christian tact to avoid sarcasm when I returned it.

Nevertheless, these books are far better than some of the classics of the genre like Beast or 666. But they're only a little less ridiculous. One might observe that the money spent on them would go much further in domestic and foreign missions. And there are probably bookshelves out there that have only a Bible and a complete set of these books. It's a shame when there are far sounder and practical Christian writings than the Left Behind series.

[RnMomof7]

Equating ones millenial view with the Gospel is, IMHO, dangerous. Eschatology and Soteriology are worlds apart.

I always thought so too Jerry...untill last week...I now find out I am apostate and have a false gospel. (which would leave me lost) People I thought were friends see my salvation and Calvinism as built on sand...

I have never believed in a pre trib rapture..that puts me rather in the HPT camp...The amils may be right..the post mils might be right (I still do not think the pre tribs are right..but who knows:>)..But the bottom line is folks I have loved and respected now have let me know that I have a false gospel ........

Funny is I took off defending the pre mil Eschatology not a a firmly based belief in it but because of the way the amils on this tread were presenting it .LOL actually my own eschatology view is fluid...and may never be solid....cause God is sovereign..at least that is the Calvinists that used to be friends told me...

Be Blessed brother..

[RnMomof7]

Of course! I was lost in the Episcopal church for years before I met the Lord.

Was it because of their endtimes views? ..And Woody you may have thought you were lost , but God knew where you were all the time...you were always an elect child of God!

[Frumanchu]

I just finished reading the most recent one the other day. Breezed right through it. I read it after reading What's So Amazing About Grace? by Philip Yancey and a couple other books with heavy theology. The fictional break was very welcome.

The Left Behind books are clearly not the height of religious fiction in terms of being well-written, but I have found them rather entertaining. While I don't really agree with all the theology behind them, I cannot be too harsh...after all, it was that first book that was instrumental in making me a serious student of the Word.

I can't wait to see how they wrap the series up...

[sola gracia]

I now find out I am apostate and have a false gospel. (which would leave me lost) People I thought were friends see my salvation and Calvinism as built on sand...

I want to state publicly and unequivocally, that I have never and will never declare RnMomof7 (or anyone else for that matter) an apostate because of their eschatological beliefs. I have not read all posts on this thread so I'm not sure where she is getting this thought.

I believe one's eschatological views are very important. What one believe's about the "end" affects how one lives today. I also belive that the dispensational Pre-Mill position is very very misleading (and dare I say borderline heretical) and IMHO is the cause much of the deadness in many churches today. The only argument that I have had with RN on this thread is her adamant and sometimes caustic position about Satan not being bound. (in acordance with the reading of Revelation 20) I am very saddened when believers, especially Calvinists, allow their views to affect their emotions when posting. This goes for those who oppose RN as well. The world is watching and we need to keep our postings civil. For the teacher is not to quarrel but to be gentle and patient in their teaching.

[lockeliberty]

copy that.

[RnMomof7]

Regarding the tense changes

  See the vision

  Rev 20:1   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

     Rev 20:2   And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

     Rev 20:3   And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

     Rev 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.(past tense)

     Rev 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Close of Vision...now the explaination of it end of the vision(again past tense)

Beginning of interpretation

     Rev 20:6   Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Future tense

     Rev 20:7   And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, future tense

     Rev 20:8   And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.Future tense

     Rev 20:9   And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. A continuation of the interperation

     Rev 20:10   And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I think we can agree that tis is future tense:>)

[the_doc]

See #1434.

Pretty serious? Yes and no.