Posted on 08/30/2002 10:31:06 AM PDT by thinktwice
Rationality can lead to anything (hence the word: rationalize). Stalin, Mao and Genghis Khan were all supremely rational.
God-given morality plus rationality = moral society
Rationality by itself = anything, depending on what is considered desirable or not by those with power
Stalin thought it would be good that all farmers be collectivized. He was extremely rational in implementing his desire. He just killed all those opposed to him. He was quite successful in getting what he wanted.
If my child were in danger such that giving my life could save him, I would do so. Therefore, there are situations in which man's highest value is not his own life. You cannot use reason to deduce ethics. You can only use reason to obtain what you want (in Ayn Rand's case, her own life).
Not all manifestations of religion are rational. But many are. Christianity follows rationally from its premises (though this does not mean that men always act rationally in the name of Christianity!). Stalin proceeded quite rationally from his premises. Rationality cannot provide morality - unless you have some underlying premise or desire. And once you do, you have established a morality underlying your rational morality.
You've got it backwards. Rationality does not provide 'truth.' Rationality is just simply logical reasoning given some framework to work with. If rationality provided truth, all rational people would agree on truth. Nothing, but nothing, could be further from the case!
Nonsense. Such differences are settled every day through other means.
Prysson is right. Atheists can have whatever morality they want. They can start with a framework in which anything is good or bad for them. They can then proceed rationally from there, if they wish. Stalin did this; so did Mao. Both were extremely rational atheists. Ayn Rand believed she created good and bad out of rationality. But in reality, she had preconceived notions of good and bad (her own morality), to which she applied rationality. Christians, in contrast (or members of other religions), believe that God provides them with the definition of good and bad. They also can then proceed rationally from that point.
There are just as many rational Christians as there are rational atheists. Probably more, actually!
Precisely. The jewel thief and the murderer and the political leader and the doctor and the priest may all act extremely rationally.
Yep.
Let's say it's true. Then it certainly makes sense to many that God would want only those innately good people to acheive it. Let's say it's false, and just a construct made up by people to get people to be good. Then it would make sense as well. Either way, it makes sense.
But God might say: Hey, thinktwice, why spend so much time thinking about good and bad, when I've already sent you a perfect example of a perfect man? You could have used your time on earth to promote goodness and fight badness. Instead, you wasted all your time on a silly effort to distill notions of goodness and badness from thin air.
Like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao did.
The existence of God cannot be proved. But God's existence is inferred by the vast majority on this Earth.
Try Marx.
Always good advice, and please note that references for my Spinoza observations were provided.
By the way. Thank you, Goldhammer, for leading me to Spinoza. About him, Christian also wrote (page 379): "For Spinoza, reason is the trustworthy path to truth, however much it may come into conflict with authoritarian claims."
Knowing that about Spinoza helps to explain why he was formally excommunicated from the Jewish faith, why his work was banned by Christians, and why "... religious opposition to his ideas was so virulent." (Ibid, page 381)
One thing all men might learn from the past millennium -- highlighted by 11 September 2001 events -- is that the infalliblity lock religions claim over matters "moral" should be denounced for what it is; a lie.
Vaya con Dios.
Nice cliche, rationalization at its finest.
Truth is the recognition of reality; reason, man's only means of knowledge, is his only standard of truth. From Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.
If you value your child's life more than your own, and most people do, your choice to die while saving your child's life is an honorable and heroic act -- so long as it was your own choice.
That point is clearly made in Ayn Rand's Ethics, which I'd suggest you read.
The point is, people have different ideas about what is good and bad. I have an idea, which comes from Jesus Christ (i.e., from God); Lenin had an idea, which came (in part) from Karl Marx. Both Lenin and I are rational people. Rand tries to construct morality (what is good and bad) from rationality, but in reality starts with her own morality (like everyone else), and proceeds from there. Morality cannot be constructed purely from rationality. If she's saying that good is always following whatever choice you want; well, that's her morality. It certainly isn't mine - but both Rand and I are rational!.
I'm sorry, but rationality can lead to anything. It's not a cliche. If you believe that killing all frogs is good, you can use rationality to accomplish that goal. Stalin believe collectivizing all farms and abolishing all who supported religion were good. He used his rationality to accomplish his goals. As for the above quote - Truth is reality - but people don't always agree on reality. Reality, for the vast majority of people in this wolrd, includes God and what He wants. Reason is NOT man's only means of knowledge (that is a really false statement). When I trip over a rock I didn't see, I gain knowledge about that rock without having used reason. Finally, reason can't be the only standard of truth if truth is reality. Many things are true (real) for both the rational and the irrational. Police arrest an rational man and an irrational man for the same offenses. That reality has nothing to do with rationality. That is a truth which exists regardless of the arrested person's rationality.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.