Posted on 08/19/2002 5:30:51 PM PDT by JMJ333
JM I grew up with those books..they are beautiful and insiteful..but are they inspired liturature? I do not believe so . Jesus never quoted them in His teachings..there is no NT teaching on this OT practice.
Steve is correct that the real problem is the book of Machabees is the only place where there can be found any reference to praying for the dead..and purgatory
That is why the church NEEDS those books to support doctrine not found any other place
I have Bibles with the books in my home, but I do not consider them to be the innerrent word of God. I can read and enjoy them the same way I can enjoy books by Yancy or Max Luccadio, or the writings of Luther or Calvin. Something to think about but not ABSOLUTE truth ..Sola scriptura..
Obviously, the apostles referred repeatedly and often to the septuagint. What is contained within them was considered valuable enough that they were included in the OT until the Martin Luther came and axed them, and even then he used them as an appendix.
I tell you what. I will go and search around and come up with some other examples of doctrine Akin is referring to so we can proceed with your question. In the meantime, why do you think Luther axed Maccabees and why, if these 7 books were acceptable to the apostles, are they not acceptable to protestants?
The apostles used them. Why were they wrong in doing so?
From Maccabees we have references to 1)Purgatory and 2)indulgences.
From Judith we have references to 3)women as priests/or pastors.
And from Daniel we have references to 4) the papacy.
Which would you like to start with? And what is your answer to my previous question regarding the apostles?
We don't. Women aren't priests in the Catholic church. They are pastors to protestant churches though.
And indulgences? The papacy?
So far, we have not really figured out why protestants reject the books that the apostles used often. Why do they is my question? Not inspired? Well...were the apostles wrong? Was Christianity wrong for the first 1500 years?
"You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]" (Didache 4:5 [A.D. 70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
"Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ‘Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves’ [Is. 3:9], saying, ‘Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us’ [Wis. 2:12.]" (Letter of Barnabas 6:7 [A.D. 74]).
Clement of Rome
"By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, "What have you done?" or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]" (Letter to the Corinthians 27:5 [ca. A.D. 80]).
Polycarp of Smyrna
"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood [1 Pet. 2:17]. . . . When you can do good, defer it not, because ‘alms delivers from death’ [Tob. 4:10, 12:9]. Be all of you subject to one another [1 Pet. 5:5], having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles [1 Pet. 2:12], and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed [Is. 52:5]!" (Letter to the Philadelphians 10 [A.D. 135]).
Irenaeus
"Those . . . who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying ‘No man sees us,’ shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in Daniel the prophet: ‘O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart’ [Dan. 13:56]. You that have grown old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed before have come to light, for you have pronounced false judgments and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free, although the Lord says, ‘You shall not slay the innocent and the righteous’ [Dan. 13:52, citing Ex. 23:7]" (Against Heresies 4:26:3 [A.D. 189]; Daniel 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).
"Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left on the earth, should both be under the rule of the saints and to minister to this [new] Jerusalem and that [his] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem toward the east and behold the joy which comes to you from God himself. Behold, your sons whom you have sent forth shall come: They shall come in a band from the east to the west. . . . God shall go before with you in the light of his splendor, with the mercy and righteousness which proceed from him’ [Bar. 4:36—5:9]" (ibid., 5:35:1; Baruch was often considered part of Jeremiah, as it is here).
Hippolytus
"What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah" (Commentary on Daniel [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible).
Cyprian of Carthage
"In Genesis [it says], ‘And God tested Abraham and said to him, "Take your only son whom you love, Isaac, and go to the high land and offer him there as a burnt offering . . ."’ [Gen. 22:1–2]. . . . Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon [it says], ‘Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality . . .’ [Wis. 3:4]. Of this same thing in the Maccabees [it says], ‘Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness’ [1 Macc. 2:52; see Jas. 2:21–23]" (Treatises 7:3:15 [A.D. 248]).
"So Daniel, too, when he was required to worship the idol Bel, which the people and the king then worshipped, in asserting the honor of his God, broke forth with full faith and freedom, saying, ‘I worship nothing but the Lord my God, who created the heaven and the earth’ [Dan. 14:5]" (Letters 55:5 [A.D. 253]; Daniel 14 is not in the Protestant Bible).
Council of Rome
"Now indeed we must treat of the divine scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book, Ecclesiastes, one book, [and] Canticle of Canticles [Song of Songs], one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus [Sirach], one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books" (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).
Council of Hippo
"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).
Council of Carthage III
"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine scriptures. But the canonical scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon, twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ." (Canon 47 [A.D. 397]).
Augustine
"The whole canon of the scriptures, however, in which we say that consideration is to be applied, is contained in these books: the five of Moses . . . and one book of Joshua [Son of] Nave, one of Judges; one little book which is called Ruth . . . then the four of Kingdoms, and the two of Paralipomenon . . . . [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called ‘of Solomon’ because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them" (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]).
"We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place" (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).
The Apostolic Constitutions
"Now women also prophesied. Of old, Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron [Ex. 15:20], and after her, Deborah [Judges. 4:4], and after these Huldah [2 Kgs. 22:14] and Judith [Judith 8], the former under Josiah and the latter under Darius" (Apostolic Constitutions 8:2 [A.D. 400]).
Jerome
"What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating [in my preface to the book of Daniel] the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susannah [Dan. 13], the Song of the Three Children [Dan. 3:29–68, RSV-CE], and the story of Bel and the Dragon [Dan. 14], which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they are wont to make against us. If I did not reply to their views in my preface, in the interest of brevity, lest it seem that I was composing not a preface, but a book, I believe I added promptly the remark, for I said, ‘This is not the time to discuss such matters’" (Against Rufinius 11:33 [A.D. 401]).
Pope Innocent I
"A brief addition shows what books really are received in the canon. These are the things of which you desired to be informed verbally: of Moses, five books, that is, of Genesis, of Exodus, of Leviticus, of Numbers, of Deuteronomy, and Joshua, of Judges, one book, of Kings, four books, and also Ruth, of the prophets, sixteen books, of Solomon, five books, the Psalms. Likewise of the histories, Job, one book, of Tobit, one book, Esther, one, Judith, one, of the Maccabees, two, of Esdras, two, Paralipomenon, two books . . ." (Letters 7 [A.D. 408]).
okay okay...I live for it!
There isn't a good counter-explanation; so, don't expect one :)
The Apocrypha, those books included in the Roman Catholic Canon, were
never quoted in the New Testament. The Apocrypha was accepted as part
of the Catholic Canon at the Council of Trent in A.D. 1546.
Canonicity aids the believer in accepting the books of the Bible as the
Word of God. These books are to be trusted and used in the believer's
everyday life. The Bible can and should be the central guide in our lives via
the application of It to our lives by the Holy Spirit.
DERICKSON’S NOTES
ON THEOLOGY
by Stanley L. DericksonThe Alexandrian Jews, recognizing the Septuagint as their Bible, accepted
the whole of the Apocrypha as canonical. The Palestine Jews, on the other
hand, limited their canonical Scriptures to the Hebrew Old Testament.INTERNATIONAL
STANDARD BIBLE
ENCYCLOPEDIA
VOL. 2
B-CYRUS
Tehillim (Psalm) 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
chuck <truth@Y'shuaHaMashiach>
The deuterocanonicals were in the OT Jesus and the apostles knew and used when they were teaching and preaching.
See this link Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament where there are 112 references to the deuterocanonical books in the 4 Gospels ALONE, and hundreds of references to the deuterocanonical books in the remainder of the NT.
It is clear from the article above, and the references I cite, that these seven books (and parts of Esther and Daniel) were used by the apostles to teach, and were in the bible they used to teach and spread the Gospel. If these books weren't intended by God to be in the Bible, why didn't Jesus say something about it? Why did the apostles teach using them?
It is clear that these books were always in the OT until a Jewish group removed them because they didn't like what they had to say. All early church fathers referenced these books.
Anyway, God bless you.
The Protestants try to turn the arguement on its head. "You Catholics need Macc that to prove...".when it is just the OPPOSITE. They were axed BECAUSE they taught Purgatory. The Protestants want to pretend we invented stuff to source our doctrine and so we included non-inspired texts to prove..blah blah blah. They are the ones that destroyed Scripture and they also want us to prove they shouldnt have done that...sheesh..it is such a pathetic tactic..and shameless as it is anti-historical, not just ahistorical
"The Council of Trent added the Deuterocanon to have Scriptural backup for its many false teachings, and in doing so contradicted the universal practice of Christianity up to that time."The Council of Trent added nothing to the Old Testament, rather it simply re-affirmed the ancient practice of the Apostles and the decisions of the early Church through a universal dogmatic definition.
The 59th decree of the Council of Laodicea in 363 AD gives a list of the Old Testament books which is entirely identical with the decree of the Council of Trent. The Council of Rome in 383 AD and the Councils of Carthage 393, 397 and 419 AD all published canons again identical with that of the Council of Trent. So did Pope Innocent I in 405 AD, Pope Gelasius I in 495 AD, Pope Hormisdas in 520 AD and Pope Eugene IV at the Council of Florence in 1441. The practice of the separated Oriental Churches has likewise always been the same.
More information can be found here" "The Canon of the Bible"
Here is a quote from the introduction of the 1611 KJV Bible that I found interesting.
"The translation of the Seventy [Septuagint] dissenteth from the Original in many places, neither does it come near it, for perspicuity, gratuity, majesty; yet which of the Apostles did condemn it? Condemn it? Nay, they used it (as it is apparent, and as Saint Jerome and most learned men do confess), which they would not have done, nor by their example of using it, so grace and commend it to the Church, if it had been unworthy the appellation and name of the Word of God."
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