"Traditionalist" and Schis | matic Catholics
St. Joseph's Church, Detroit, MI: A Traditional Novus Ordo Parish (link to an article)
The history of Christian doctrine is . . . an avenue into the authentic continuity of Christian believing, teaching, and confessing. Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living.
(Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine: vol. 1 of 5: The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600), Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1971, 9)
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See also the Ecumenism & Salvation "Outside" the Catholic Church page for links on the topics of Salvation Outside the Church, Feeneyism, Religious Liberty, Ecumenism, and Comparative Religion. See the Church page for papers and links about authority issues, and the male priesthood, and the Theological Liberalism & Modernism page for vigorous critiques of various modernist errors (also the Agnosticism, Atheism, Humanism, and Secularism page). The Papacy and Infallibility page contains information on conciliar infallibility also. Political conservatism is explicated on the Politics and Social Activism page, and traditional morality links can be found on the Moral Theology page.
Syllabus of 60 "Traditionalist" Errors, Fallacies, and False Principles 96K
Critique of my Syllabus of 60 "Traditionalist" Errors and My Counter-Reply (Dave Armstrong vs. Mark Cameron) 19K
Dialogue: Catholic "Traditionalism": the Dreadful Malady of the Mind and Scourge of an Optimistic Faith in God's Protection of His Church 29K
Critique of The Remnant, with Copious Documentation 100K
Dialogue on The Remnant ("Traditionalist" Group) 81K
Dialogue with a Troubled Semi-Traditionalist on the "Catastrophe" of the Post-Vatican II Church 80K
Dialogue: So-Called "Traditionalists" vs. So-Called "Conservatives" 29K
Protestant Contra-Catholic Revisionist History: Pope St. Pius X and Cardinal Newman's Alleged "Modernism" 132K
Dietrich von Hildebrand and Legitimate Catholic Traditionalism 45K
Dialogue: The "Traditionalist" Disdain for the Second Vatican Council: Is it Consistent With Catholic Tradition? Is it Binding on All Catholics? (With Copious References, and a Discussion of the Infallibility and Sublime Authority of Conciliar and Papal Decrees and Pronouncements) 189K
Reflections on False Catholic "Traditionalism" 34K
Conciliar Infallibility: Church Documents 23K
Pre-Vatican II Ecumenism 13K
Apologia for Catholic Ecumenism and Christian Unity 14K
How Anti-Catholics Can be Catholics' Brothers in Christ (Truth Wherever it is Found, Ignorance, and Invincible Ignorance) 42K
A Defense of the Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (Ecumenism in St. Thomas Aquinas) (Fr. Alfredo M. Morselli) 35K
A Response to (and Wonderment at) Criticisms of the Second Ecumenical Gathering at Assisi (2002) (Mark P. Shea) 25K
Dialogue: Should the Pope Kiss The Koran?: Ecumenism as an Effort to Acknowledge Partial Truth Wherever it is Found 71K
"Why Doesn't Pope John Paul II DO Something About the Modernist Dissenters in the Catholic Church?" 39K
Are All Catholic Laymen and Non-Theologians Qualified to Freely and Frequently Criticize the Pope's Opinions and Prudential Judgment? 72K
Dialogue: Baptism, the Mystical Body of Christ, and Implications for Ecumenism 18K
Dialogue: Vatican II and Other Religions (Nostra Aetate) 20K
My Traditional Novus Ordo Parish 16K
How to Receive Communion: Tradition, Abuses, Symbolism, and Piety 13K
General / Miscellaneous
ULTRATRADITIONALISTS (website by "Matt1618")
On Liberal and Ultraconservative "Catholicism" (Luke Wadel)
A Prescription Against Traditionalism (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Apologetics Papers and Critiques of False "Traditionalism" (I. Shawn McElhinney)
The "Remnant" (Mattite) Sect (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Confusing Culture With 'Tradition' (I. Shawn McElhinney)
THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Was Pope John Paul II Ritually Anointed by a Hindu in India? (James Akin)
Catholic Encyclopedia: OLD CATHOLICS
Schismatic Traditionalists (Matt C. Abbott)
An Open Letter to Confused Traditionalists (F. John Loughnan)
Traditionalists and the Epistemology of Protestantism: Private Judgment (Stephen Hand)
Detection and Overthrow of the Traditionalist Catholics Falsely So-Called (I. Shawn McElhinney, Dr. Art Sippo, and "Matt1618")
ORTHODOXY AND TRADITIONALISM (Gerard V. Bradley)
Christian Unity and the Role of Authority: The Infallibility of the Church and the Pope (I. Shawn McElhinney)
What Went Wrong With Vatican II? (Ralph McInerny)
Vatican II and its Authority (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Making the True Vatican II Our Own (John Saward)
Formal Debate: Was Vatican II an Infallible Council? (Adam Kolasinski vs. Art Sippo)
Was Vatican Council II Voided by Pope Pius II's "Execrabilis"? (F. John Loughnan)
Traditional Catholic Reflections & Reports © (website: Stephen Hand)
Integrism, Integrist, Extreme Traditionalists (web page: Stephen Hand)
The Pete Vere Homepage (orthodox traditionalist canonist)
Apologetics Papers and Critiques of False "Traditionalism" (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Agenda (William Grossklas; contra-SSPX website)
F. John Loughnan's Page (former SSPX member)
The Catholic Liturgical Library
Traditional Latin Mass
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi Web Site
The History Buff's Catholic Website
Latin Mass Magazine
JAMES LIKOUDIS' PAGE
A Bill of Rights for Orthodox Catholics (Mark J. Kelly)
Registry of Papally-Approved Traditional (Tridentine) Masses
Latin Mass (Novus Ordo) Directory for the USA
And to the Latin Mass (Tim Padgett; Time, June 7, 1999)
A New "Way" for the Church (Opus Dei) (Antonio Gaspari)
''Changes in Mass for Greater Apostolate'' (Pope Paul VI audience)
''The Mass is the Same'' (Pope Paul VI audience)
In Defense of the Novus Ordo Mass ("Matt 1618")
A Short Primer on the Mass (I. Shawn McElhinney)
The Red Herring of Communion in the Hand (I. Shawn McElhinney and "Matt1618")
A Micro Look at the Pauline Mass (I. Shawn McElhinney)
THE PAULINE LITURGY: A TRUE RESTORATION (I. Shawn McElhinney)
THE ALTAR AND THE DIRECTION OF LITURGICAL PRAYER (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger)
THE MASS OF VATICAN II (Joseph Fessio, S.J.)
ARE WE BALKANIZING CATHOLIC WORSHIP? (Helen Hull Hitchcock)
VANDALIZING CHURCHES (James Hitchcock)
Review of Coomaraswamy's The Problems With the New Mass (William G. Most)
Liturgical Abuses: The Church Speaks
Rethinking Communion in the Hand (Jude A. Huntz)
Introduction to the Lefebvrist Schism (James Akin)
Decree of Excommunication on Marcel Lefebvre
The Protocol of Agreement of the Vatican and Archbishop Lefebvre
Archbishop Lefebvre and the Declaration on Religious Liberty (William G. Most)
Ecclesia Dei (Pope John Paul II on the schismatic Society of St. Pius X)
Agenda (William Grossklas; anti-SSPX website)
A Canonical History of the Lefebvrite Schism (Peter J. Vere)
My Journey Out of the Lefebvre Schism: All Tradition Leads to Rome (Pete Vere)
A Case Study In Modern-Day Donatism (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Is the Society of St. Pius X in Schism? A Recent Response from Rome (F. John Loughnan)
Status of Society of St. Pius X Masses (Pontifical Commission on Ecclesia Dei)
Status of SSPX (Pontifical Commission on Ecclesia Dei)
The Flat Earth Society and SSPX-Type "Traditionalists" (F. John Loughnan)
Schism, Obedience, & SSPX (John Beaumont & John Walsh)
MY REASONS FOR WITHDRAWING SUPPORT FROM THE SOCIETY OF ST. PIUS X (F. John Loughnan)
Lefebvrism: Jansenism Revisited? (Anthony Fisher) + SSPX Type Traditionalists (F. John Loughnan)
Do-it Yourself Popes: The Wacky World of Sedevacantists (Michael Petek)
A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism (I. Shawn McElhinney)
Main Index & Search | Church | Papacy | Saints | Tradition | Purgatory | Justification | Sacramentalism | Mary | Penance | Eucharist | Development | Trinity | Creation | Misc. Theology | Book & Search Links | Eastern Orthodoxy | Ecumenism | Catholic Documents & General/Apologetic Websites
Compiled by Dave Armstrong. Thorough URL Revision: 13 February 2002. Updated: 13 May 2002.
Not as they seem ... Schismatic Sites |
Docs and Articles Faithful Sites |
Take a look at some of the mail this page is generating ... |
Not As They Seem ... Over the last few years, religious web sites of every stripe have sprung up across the internet. Not all of them, however, are what they appear to be at first sight. When I first began to browse the internet, I was drawn to the Catholic sites, and had a huge collection of them in my favorites folder. As soon as I found a new one, in it went. I spent hours typing religious words into the search bar to see what would come up, and followed all the links on the new sites I found. I was like a little kid in a candy shop ... or perhaps even more like a drunk in a liquor store, because it took me a long time to realize that some of the "Catholic sites" ... really weren't. They all looked so good! They talked about the Rosary, the Mass, the Blessed Mother ... they had all of those pretty pictures that I remembered from the holy cards the nuns used to hand out when I was a little girl in parochial school. They felt so "comfortable" that I never really explored the web sites very deeply. I never felt I needed to. Need to dig a little deeper ... One day, I ran across a site called "Catholic Apologetics." It was such a nice site! They had Catholic Prayers, pretty icons, and all sorts of cuddly, fuzzy, warm Catholic things. I was so impressed with the site that we featured it! The fellow who runs the site and I exchanged emails, and over a period of time, I began to wonder about some of the stuff he was writing. Among other things that aroused my suspicions was the fact that he seemed to think that I would be better off to missing Mass completely than attending a "New Mass." Going back to his site, I explored it more deeply. I was disappointed to find that his site was rife with articles in defense of the excommunicated Archbishop LeFebvre, condemnations of the "Novus Ordo" (New Mass,) condemnations of Vatican II, and a confusing mixture of articles that, on one hand, accept the Holy Father and his authority, and on the other, reject them both. Hard to discern the good from the bad As bad as this last site sounds, it still isn't as bad as others I've seen. Some of them believe that the Papacy has been vacant since Pope Pius XII, and that all of the other Popes since then have been usurpers. Those who believe this are called "Sedevacantists." And then there are those who disagree with the original LeFebvrists on one point or another, and those who disagree with the "disagree-ers" on yet other points ... and on down the line, until they become indistinguishable from the original 'protest'-ants. Some of them belong to the schismatic SSPX society itself, and go so far as to deny that there even is a schism! And, almost unbelievably, some still call themselves Roman Catholic after electing their own pope! One thing they all have in common, however, is that they all call themselves "traditionalists." I beg to differ on that point, since "traditionally," Roman Catholics do not disobey the Holy Father and the Magisterium. Doing the homework ... There are many levels and shades of these extreme right wing schismatics, and it makes it very hard for an obedient, faithful Catholic to tell if they've found a real Catholic web site which is faithful to the Magisterium, or if they've stumbled across a schismatic site that inserts little (or large) drops of poison here and there against Rome, Vatican II, the Holy Father ... In order to discover if a particular web site is really a true, faithful, traditional web site that loves the Traditions of the Church without promoting disobedience, or if it's a schismatic site that only calls itself "traditional," you have to dig deeply into everything they say, and all of the little links they provide for you. A good way to tell is if they promote other web sites that belong to the SSPX or SSPV, if they have articles in defense of Archbishop LeFebvre, or say they are trying to "convert 'Catholics' to Catholicism." (Humility doesn't seem to be part of the deal ... ) Some are more difficult to pinpoint, although the overall tone is schismatic. The only thing to do when you're not sure is to keep the webmasters in prayer - and exercise great caution when visiting. Of course, if you can find other sites that are more trustworthy and provide the same services, you may be better off avoiding the more suspicious ones altogether. How to use this page We've done a bit of research for you. We've included links to articles and letters that explain the schism in more detail, and give the views of Rome on the issue. Among those links, you can find Archbishop LeFebvre's Decree of Excommunication, and other similar documents. Also included on this page are two lists that should help you discern the faithful from the schismatic: One contains the names of websites that promote material we were able to identify as schismatic, either openly like the overt SSPX websites, or in a more subtle way, for example: including links to schismatic websites or articles as part of their own apologetics. Many of them openly don't say a word about not being in union with Rome, but have articles telling Catholics to not attend the "New Mass," or telling them that continuing to follow the Holy Father will lead to damnation. Some of them claim to still be within the Church, but their material indicates otherwise. I had wanted to color code the links in order to show what the particular problem with each site was, but there were so many factors involved that it wouldn't have been practical. We'd have had some gorgeous rainbows tho! ;) The second list contains websites that are both "Traditional," and faithful to the Holy Father and the Magisterium. These sites are a breath of fresh air for all of us, and a sign of hope for those who yearn for a return to the Tridentine Mass. We will continue to add links to both lists, and any new articles that may surface. If there are any sites you would like us to take a look at, A discerning spirit will be able to distinguish between "traditional," and "Traditional."
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Faithful Traditional Websites
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Documents and Articles
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You forgot my addition to number 6:
"6) Denying the Novus Ordo is valid and licit or that Pope Paul VI had the authority to promulgate it does make one schismatic."
Ought to be: "6) Denying the Novus Ordo is valid and licit, and entirely orthodox and Catholic or that Pope Paul VI had the authority to promulgate it does make one schismatic."
I thank you for this post. It is a good answer to the schismatics and their supporters