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The Theological Aesthetics of Hans Urs von Balthasar
La Salle University ^ | Joel Garver

Posted on 08/10/2002 5:45:29 PM PDT by JMJ333

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To: drstevej
BBL - three or four hours. No time now to give you an adequate answer.
581 posted on 08/22/2002 11:41:05 AM PDT by scottiewottie
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To: drstevej
I'm sure that scottie will eventually get around to saying that Jesus is exactly eternal as you and I are eternal. I'd love to say around for the reply, but I will probably be unable to post on FR for several days to come.
582 posted on 08/22/2002 2:46:40 PM PDT by theAmbassador
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To: drstevej
Quite often at church meetings and in prayers I hear members of our church refer to The Savior Jesus Christ as "our Elder Brother".

Fundamental to the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the concept that all human beings were born as spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents before any were born as mortals to earthly parents. Latter-day Saints believe that the eldest and firstborn spirit child of God is Jehovah and that it was he who was later born with a physical body to Mary as Jesus Christ.

That is, Jehovah of the Old Testament became Jesus Christ of the New Testament when he was born into mortality. The Psalmist refers to the Messiah as the firstborn (Ps. 89:27), and the apostle Paul speaks of Jesus as the "firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29; cf. Heb. 2:17) and as the "firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15). Perhaps the most authoritative statement on the subject is from the Savior himself, who declared to the Prophet Joseph Smith, "I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn" (D&C 93:21). In 1909 the First Presidency of the Church declared:

The Father of Jesus is our Father also. Jesus Himself taught this truth, when He instructed His disciples how to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven," etc. Jesus, however, is the firstborn among all the sons of God—the first begotten in the spirit, and the only begotten in the flesh. He is our elder brother, and we, like Him, are in the image of God. All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.

"In the beginning was the Word". For the Latter-day Saint this "beginning" predates our spiritual creation, Jesus being literally our Elder Brother, the first born of all spiritual creations. Though we were prior to this spiritual creation a lower creation we call "intelligences", it is this spiritual creation that formally is our birth to Heavenly Parents.

So from our beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God; and the Word was the God. Jesus, our Elder Brother from our beginning, has always been our God.

Very short on time today. Must leave now. Have a great evening.

583 posted on 08/22/2002 4:41:05 PM PDT by scottiewottie
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To: P-Marlowe
Here is the information I said I would post:

The Father and The Son: A Doctrinal Exposition (LDS)

584 posted on 08/23/2002 8:23:21 AM PDT by White Mountain
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To: drstevej
WAS THAT YOU IN MY BARN-:)
585 posted on 08/23/2002 6:23:12 PM PDT by StickyWings
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To: xzins
Additional information about the Three Witnesses:

CubicleGuy posted a quote in Stupid Church Tricks #218, and in his #215 he describes how to get to the web page where this paper is first on the list:

The witnesses to the Book of Mormon have always been extremely impressive to me. Some people seem to deal with them by simply waving them aside. This can't be done. Richard Anderson's work on the three witnesses and the eight witnesses demonstrates conclusively that these were sincere, competent, honorable people who believed that they had seen what they claimed to see. More recently, Lyndon Cook has published a collection of interviews with David Whitmer, who was the last survivor of the three witnesses. There are almost ninety interviews there and what is impressive about it is the sheer monotony of the interviews, the monotony of the story that he tells–because it is the same story over and over and over again. David Whitmer, you will remember, left the church and never came back, and at times felt some hostility towards the Church and some dissatisfaction with the direction it had gone. But that is irrelevant; those are just his opinions. Where he is important is as a witness. He was given many opportunities to step back from his witness, to say, "Well, I might have been mistaken" or "Joseph Smith fooled me" or something like that. He never availed himself of that opportunity. He always stood by his witness. In fact, he did more than stand by it–he insisted on it. He had his testimony of the Book of Mormon placed on his tombstone. That, I think, is striking.
From Evidences of the Book of Mormon by Daniel C. Peterson
586 posted on 08/24/2002 3:09:19 AM PDT by White Mountain
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To: xzins

Can We Believe the Witnesses

to the Book of Mormon?

by John A. Widstoe

Three men, and later eight men, declared in two formal, signed testimonies that they saw, and handled the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated...

... in June, 1829, the plates were shown to the three witnesses. On the day set, Joseph Smith and the three witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris, sought a secluded spot in the forest. After prayer by each one, when nothing happened, Martin Harris withdrew, feeling that his lack of faith was preventing the manifestation. After his withdrawal, a heavenly being stood before them in the midst of a bright light, with the plates in his hands. He turned the leaves, and spoke to the witnesses.

Then they heard a voice declaring that

These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear.

Joseph then went in pursuit of Martin Harris, whom he joined in prayer. To the great joy of Martin Harris, the same vision opened to him. Thus, the three witnesses had realized their desires. (See History of the Church 1:54-56.)

True, the record of this event was written by Joseph Smith, but the witnesses were still living, and could have corrected any errors in the account. This they did not do.

A derailed account of any event is always an evidence of its truth. Deceivers are careful to deal in few details and many generalities. The whole event occurred in full daylight. All of them were vigorous young men in good health.

Eight witnesses corroborated the testimony of the three witnesses.

As if to make assurance doubly sure, the plates were later shown to eight other men. Whether all eight saw the plates at the same time is not known. However, the men, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith, Sen., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith, unitedly signed the testimony in which they describe the plates and the engravings on them, and further declared that they actually handled and "hefted" the plates.

Such corroboration of the testimony of the three, under different conditions, and at different times, certifies immeasurably to the truth of the events.

The witnesses remained true to their testimonies to the end of their days.

Some of the witnesses left the Church, others were excommunicated, but their testimonies for the truth of the Book of Mormon remained unchanged,

Of the three witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer were excommunicated. Martin Harris drifted away; Cowdery, of undisputed high intelligence, and Harris, holding stubbornly to his views, both returned and were again baptized into the Church. Whitmer, hugging old grievances and remaining unaffiliated with the Church, bore frequent testimony to the truth of the translation of the Book of Mormon from the Nephite plates. Oliver Cowdery practiced law. Several times, before the courts, his integrity was impugned because of his acceptance of the Book of Mormon. Each time he bore testimony to the truth of the Nephite record. Wherever he went, he was looked upon as a man of honor. He died with his testimony upon his lips.

David Whitmer remained in Richmond, Missouri, to the end of his life. He lived to be a very old man. Many persons called on him to ask about his testimony to the Book of Mormon. Orson Pratt, Joseph F. Smith, James H. Moyle, and C. C. Richards were among these visitors. To each and all he reaffirmed his testimony. He died with his testimony upon his lips.

Martin Harris, after various misadventures, remained for many years in the East near the Kirtland Temple. Visitors there would quiz him about his belief in the Book of Mormon. Among them were Edward Stevenson and W. H. Homer. His answer was invariable, that he was as certain of his testimony as he was of the sun in the high heavens. He finally settled, in his old age, in Clarkston, Utah. He died with his testimony upon his lips.

The lives of the eight witnesses tell the same story. One of the witnesses, John Whitmer, was excommunicated from the Church. Two, Jacob Whitmer and Hiram Page, withdrew from the Church. The other five, Christian Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., Joseph Smith, Sen., Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith, remained faithful, useful members of the Church during their whole lives.

All of the eight witnesses, whether in or out of the Church, maintained to their last breath that they saw and handled the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated.

Every one of the eleven witnesses remained true to his testimony concerning the Book of Mormon plates.

The facts connected with the Book of Mormon witnesses are so unanswerable that they have been disconcerting stumbling blocks to ... critics [who attempt to suggest] that the witnesses were dishonest, and in collusion with the Prophet. That is, the whole story of seeing the plates was invented, and had no basis in fact. That explanation has long since fallen to the ground. This is admitted by most anti-Mormon writers. The well-attested life histories of the witnesses show every one of them to have been honest and honorable in his dealings with his fellow men. If their testimonies had been untrue, one or the other would have revealed his perfidy. Many opportunities were given them. Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and John Whitmer were excommunicated from the Church, improperly, as they thought. They then soured upon the Prophet and the Church. That would have given them a chance to declare the whole thing a fraud. Instead they remained true to their testimony. Even anti-Mormons have conceded that collusion among Joseph Smith and the witnesses is most improbable...

The more the witnesses are studied the more certain the student becomes that their testimonies are true and irrefutable.

They were honest men, clearheaded, hardheaded, not easily influenced. They had seen and handled the Nephite plates. They had heard a voice from heaven, declaring the work to be true. They could do nothing else than to bear witness to their glorious experience. The testimonies of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon are an unanswerable proof of the divine mission of Joseph Smith the Prophet.

(Exerpted from A Book of Mormon Treasury: Selections from the Pages of the Improvement Era [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1959], pp 39-43)

587 posted on 08/24/2002 4:10:46 AM PDT by White Mountain
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