John Paul II — The Face of Love

e3mil.com ^ | 8/6/02 | James Bemis

[drstevej]

From the college website:

Heythrop College was founded by the Society of Jesus in 1614. It has strong roots in the Roman Catholic tradition but is committed to ecumenical engagement with the cultural and religious diversity of the modern world.

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She'll fit right in!

[ultima ratio]

You say Lefebvre's consecration of Williamson speaks volumes about his perspicacity.

What volumes of perspicacity is spoken when Jn Paul II elevates Law, Mahoney, Weakland, Egan, Kasper, etc., etc., etc.

[sitetest]

Dear AB,

"I suppose you didn't notice that the Vatican just excommunicated a bunch of women who pretended to get ordained?"

I noticed that.

And pointed it out on a thread.

I suppose ultima didn't notice.

It certainly works against his thesis that only the poor little "traditionalists" are ever disciplined by this pope.

sitetest

[Loyalist]

I suppose you didn't notice that the Vatican just excommunicated a bunch of women who pretended to get ordained?

And for that we should all be thankful. Too often CT's are quick to condemn the bishops when they do wrong, and slow to praise when they do right.

[ultima ratio]

You are mistaken about the infallibility of ecumenical councils. They are infallible only when they declare doctrine dogmatically. Vatican II specifically stated nothing it said should be considered de fide, i.e., as infallible. It declared no new doctrine, but repeated much that had been previously taught. The fact that it insisted that Latin should be retained for the Mass as well as Gregorian chant, should clue you in that what it said was was pastoral only--and therefore merely advisory.
As it is, much of what they have advised, much of it liberal pipe-dreaming, has turned sour the past forty years.

[sitetest]

Dear ultima ratio,

So you, too, are saying that an Ecumenical Council can teach what is not true?

sitetest

[Gophack]

Ultima, either you believe that the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ as His church on earth, and you accept the primacy of Peter and, by extension, the role of the Pope as the Vicar of Christ -- His representative on Earth -- or you don't. If you don't, you are not Catholic.

If you are unhappy with some of the things in the church, does that mean that Christ broke His promise to His church? NO! It means that men are sinners, and our faith is more important than ever.

Offer your frustrations and anger to our Lord, and let the Holy Spirit work. We know why we are suffering -- we are sinners and deserve it. We also know that with repentance and love and faith and perseverence until the end, that we might see the kingdom of Heaven.

Dissing the church and the Vicar of Christ isn't the surest way to Heaven, I would imagine, especially for a Catholic.

God bless you, and I will pray that your anger is dissolved so you may fully appreciate the gifts our Lord has given you through His church.

[ultima ratio]

Your run-down on Econe is ridiculous. You have been fed a lot of garbage that you apparently believe and now you spew it up. The Econe got rave reviews from the Vatican envoys--which infuriated the French bishops. Your version, that it was a 6-year experiment--is silly on the surface. Experiment in what? It was an enormous success. By every standard of decency it should have been honored with continuance. It was reaping hundreds of devout vocations. It was prospering beyond anyone's wildest dreams--this is why Rome sought to destroy it--to appease the French bishops who are on the cusp of a break with Rome, the same bishops who sabotaged an agreement recently that would have healed the breech with SSPX. You are wrong as well in your interpretation of the Archbishop's signing of the agreement. Yes, he took back his word--the next day. He slept on it and realized he couldn't trust Rome. And he was absolutely right. If you follow these things--and you clearly don't--Rome reneged on its agreement with the FSSP. It's one of the reasons for the huge mistrust on the part of SSPX. They see how Rome operates.

[ultima ratio]

You are badly informed. Lefebvre did NOT sign all the documents. He refused to sign Dignitatis Humanae, for instance. Get your facts straight. Nor did he ever deny he signed an agreement with the Vatican and then disavowed it. I have read countless times his comments that he signed the agreement and then had second thoughts and withdrew his assent. These claims that he denied signing the agreement are myths that your side propagates to demonize him. He himself was too honorable and virtuous to claim anything but the truth. Your side is the side that propagates these fairy tales constantly.

[ultima ratio]

What on earth has the ordination of some kooky female dissidents got to do with anything I've been saying? If you think it's the same situation, then you are hopelessly confused. Archbp. Lefebvre was preserving the Catholic tradition when he consecrated his bishops, not pushing a feminist ideology. Do you think the two equate with one another?

[Catholicguy]

You are badly informed. Lefebvre did NOT sign all the documents. He refused to sign Dignitatis Humanae, for instance.

Yet another error. The signatures have been photocopied and published. You know, even your SSPX admits that now. Sheesh, I would think that you could at least get SSPX stuff straight

[Catholicguy]

Your version, that it was a 6-year experiment--is silly on the surface

Another error. Econe was opened ad experimentum.

[ultima ratio]

You pose the question wrongly. It did not "teach" anything that hadn't been dogmatically proclaimed in the past. What it did was advise and offer pastoral counsel. In fact, it specifically stated nothing in its documents was de fide--i.e, demanding of our assent. Why do you suppose the liturgists were so quick to threw away the Council's suggestion to retain Latin and Gregorian Chant?

[Catholicguy]

. They are infallible only when they declare doctrine dogmatically

Another error. ALL Ecumenical Councils are infallible by their nature

[ultima ratio]

It's not that simple. Sure I believe the Pope is Christ's vicar on earth, but he is not an absolute monarch and he is infallible only in a very limited area--when he speaks ex cathedra. Vatican I made this abundantly clear. The Holy Spirit does not protect the Pope from error when he acts in ways that go beyond the papal duties of his office--which is specifically intended to guard the deposit of faith.

[Catholicguy]

I'm done. You and Bud can have yer lil' schismatic church. I want no part of it

[ultima ratio]

Show me the signatures. Or even somebody's statement about them.

[ultima ratio]

ad experimentum means nothing. It was the best deal he could get at the time. Had things in Rome been on the up and up, the experiment would have depended on increasing vocations and the sanctity and learnedness of the seminarians it turned out as norms for its success. Vocations were skyrocketing. As it was, Rome used another yardstick-- the French bishops' animus delendi. A truly ugly chapter in Vatican intrigue--and the Pope bought into it. I don't doubt this was a prime motive for his desire to heal the breech by opening up negotiations last year. It was the Pope, remember, who reached out--and not out of charity, either, which is the construction you guys like to put on it. It was a matter of justice.