Posted on 07/31/2002 9:27:40 AM PDT by Polycarp
Okay, I'll calm down. Don't want to pop a blood vessel. ;-)
But I still don't see the point. That some Catholics do nutty things or have nutty ideas or do evil things or have evil ideas is no more surprising to me than that some Protestants do similarly.
"I told poly that I tend to believe him when he tells me it is not official church teaching that Mary is worshipped."
Gee, thanks. Beat us some more, why don't you. ;-)
C'mon, Wrigley, you tend to believe it? Could you be a little less decisive about giving Catholics the benefit of the doubt that we do not teach idolatry? Go read the Catechism of the Catholic Church! You can find it on-line. The Catechism offers a reasonably-concise 700 page treatment of what it is that Catholics officially believe. And worship of Mary, according to this official statement of Catholic belief, is verboten.
I tend to believe that you are sincere and don't quite realize the attitude of bias which comes across in your tending to believe that we are not idolators.
But next time I will be more gentle when I tend to believe that you are a brother in Christ deserving of the benefit of the doubt, even when you apparently accidentally push Catholic hot-buttons.
sitetest
Their usage of the language was wrong, not their intent. See my post to DrStevej. How can you know what every Catholic is forcefully taught, that all healing comes only from God, but that we may ask for intercession from other saints, both those living on earth and those living in heaven, and still persist in characterizing those poor women as practicing Mary worship.
It might seem a natural conclusion to you.
To me it is a bigoted unwarranted and uncharitable conclusion.
No Catholic worships Mary, even the simple little old ladies.
Every Catholic knows worship is owed to God alone. Every one!
So to us its simple bigotry for you to assert otherwise when we know damn well its simply untrue and we've explained why to you till we're blue in the face!
Of course, by "you" I don't mean you personally, Wrigley. But please understand our exasperation when otherwise well meaning Christians tell us we have this terrible problem of Catholics worshipping Mary when such is simply a straw man, an untruth, a lie propagated by professional anti-Catholics and accepted uncritically by otherwise well meaning Christians.
Can you not see how that veneration could lead to worship?
Are you also saying you know what the intentions were? I knew these guys personally. I think I would have a better grasp of what they thought than you would.
Horrors! Praying to Mary! Do you understand what that means? It simply means asking her intercession according to the communion of saints. IT IS NOT WORSHIP!!! And those guys know that!!!
I don't think I am unreasonable when I come to that conclusion.
Actually, you are not. You've been so programmed to think that
"praying to Mary" = Worshipping Mary as God,
not
"praying to Mary" = asking her intercession according to the Christian doctrine of the communion of saints, a doctrine found in the earliest Christian creeds,
that you are not being unreasonable at all.
But you are still wrong, and it is institutionalized anti-Catholic bigotry that programs your thinking to draw these fatally flawed conclusions!
Catholics do not worship Mary.
Protestants use different meanings for "worship" and "prayer" and "veneration" that, when those meanings are projected onto common Catholic dialogue and prayer practices, make it seem Catholics are involved in idolatry and worshipping saints.
They are not!!!
Furthermore, professional anti-Catholics know damn well that they are continuing to propagate these misunderstanding, BUT THEY DO IT ANYWAYS because it serves their agenda.
BTW, This of course is simple bigotry, willfully and of set purpose intended to confuse otherwise honest Christians regarding true Catholic practices and beliefs.
My first point is that when you say tend to believe that this is the official teaching of the Catholic Church, you are casting in doubt that we do not officially teach idolatry.
Since it is clear to anyone who can read, and has taken the time to inform themselves of the official teaching of the Church in this regard, that, indeed, we do not officially teach idolatry, your tending to believe sounds like an insult.
If you have any doubt whatsoever that it is the official teaching of the Church that we will not be idolators, fall silent for a while, check out the Catechism, and once you're convinced that idolatry is not our official teaching, then come back and ask the questions that you have.
Or at least pretend that you are convinced.
Now, to your question. Do I think veneration of Mary, or of any saint, can lead to worship?
Any good thing can be perverted. Even very worthy things can be perverted. However, I just don't know any Catholics who confuse the veneration due Mary with the worship due God alone. No matter how fervent our prayers to Mary, no matter how badly we use the language, we just don't equate her with God, and we don't offer her the adoration due God alone.
So, can veneration lead to worship? No. People may worship inappropriately, but it is not veneration that leads to worship.
But, for me, the real question is, can the doctrine "faith alone", and the doctrine of "once saved, always saved", and the various doctrines of predestination and utter depravity lead some Protestants to lead a life of Pharisaism?
To me, that's an interesting question.
sitetest
Assuming you have a good relationship with your mother, if I wanted to get your attention or wanted a favor from you, would I stand a better chance if I asked your mother to intercede?
THAT'S how most Catholics view Mary. You don't believe in the intercession of saints; Catholics do. I pray to my sainted mother, who I know is in God's presence, to put in a good word for me, every night.
I know she does.
I'll try to be brief. My parents converted first, and I tried to stop them by throwing up to them all the anti-catholic garbage I had heard in evangelical circles. My mother gave me some books to read. I know for sure that one of them was Fundamentalism vs. Catholicism. She also gave me Scott Hahn's conversion story on cassette. First I read books then I talked to my parents Parish Priest. We don't live in the same town so mostly we talked on the phone. He is a wonderful Priest. He was patient with me even when I was tedious. His love for the faith was evident as he explained it to me. Finally I began attending Mass at the nearest Catholic Church which is about 30 miles from my home. Little by little God began revealing His truths to me.
About a year after I first started investigating the faith, I was ready to convert. I began RCIA classes. They were taught by the Parish Priest and I can't begin to say enough good things about him. At first I was put off because he was so young. I expected Spencer Tracy (lol!) It wasn't until some time later that I found out what wisdom he possessed. See, I was divorced and remarried. At that time I didn't know I'd have to have my marriage annulled and Father David didn't tell me right away. Noooo! First he let me get over half way through with RCIA classes, and he gave me more books to read-- which I devoured. He waited until he could see that I was like the man in the parable; the one who found the pearl of great price and was ready to sell everything he had to obtain it. It was belief in the Real Presence that did it. I couldn't wait to be in full communion with the Church and receive our Lord in the sacrament. Only when I had reached that point did Father David give me the paperwork for the annulment. If you've never seen this paperwork you can't imagine the soul-searching you have to do to finish it. The questions are very personal and there is a lot of work involved. Father David helped me with the paperwork and it was only after I received the annulment that Father told me that my husband and I needed to have our marriage "blessed" before I entered the Church. Oh, he was slick alright! If someone had told me right at first what all was involved in becoming Catholic I might not have done it. But by the time I found out what needed to be done, I would have done almost anything!
Father David moved on and isn't in my Diocese any longer. I wish I knew where he was so I could thank him.
Yes, but it only happens in anti-Catholic horror stories and imaginings, not in real life! Catholics know the difference between Creator and created.
Is that not possible?
Anything is possible. Its just not probable. I can honestly tell you that not one single Catholic I have ever met or known, and that numbers in many thousands, has ever jumped from veneration of Mary to worship of Mary. This is a straw man.
Is that not an explanation to what I have heard?
No. What you heard was the unguarded clumsy prayers of faithful Catholics who are so immersed in the faith that they need not make these english language distinctions in their prayers simply so that you don't draw conclusions that Catholics are idolatrous. Only a man of bad faith would draw such conclusions when the teachings of our faith so blatantly oppose such a conclusion.
Even though it is not church teaching, that it could happen?
As I said, after Original Sin, anything, despite the best efforts of Catholicism, could happen. Does it happen? No, not that I have ever seen in my vast experience with Catholics from all walks of life. Except in anti-Catholic playbooks. Or the imaginings of those trying to disprove Christ's Church.
Don't take my bluntness as being mean. But you are blind if you can't see that.
I can assure you, I did not imagine this at all. We were sitting at lunch when one of the guys said his aunt was sick. They then prayed to Mary, not mention of Jesus. I asked them afterwards if ther were praying for Mary to heal her, or were they asking Mary to interceed to Christ. I was told the prayer was TO MARY SO SHE COULD HEAL. I did not mishear, I did not fantasize it.
A.
Suppose, we later asked the person and they said, I meant "B" is that idolatry?
Suppose...suppose...suppose...
"Don't take my bluntness as being mean. But you are blind if you can't see that."
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!
I tend to believe that you are not striking out at me in bitterness and nastiness. * chuckle *
But seriously, Wrigley, it may not be that I'm blind but rather that I see another set of things that you don't.
Good things don't lead to bad things. Period. Misuse of good things is a bad thing, of itself.
Of itself, sex doesn't lead to abortion. But misuse of sex (a very good thing, indeed, if I may add), through contraception, through pre-marital and extra-marital sex, through selfishness, can lead to abortion.
Veneration of the saints, especially the Theotokos, is a very, very good thing. Of itself, it cannot lead to worship of creatures.
But misuse of veneration, by desire for power, superstition, selfishness, foolishness, and other very serious psychological and spiritual deficiencies, can lead to worship of creatures.
Reading the Bible, of itself, is a very good thing. Of itself, it can cause no bad thing.
However, misuse of the Bible, through private interpretation, can lead to all manner of spiritual ills.
I notice you completely ignored my discussion of your telling us that you tend to believe us that our official teaching is not to endorse idolatry.
I tend to believe that that is just an unfortunate oversight on your part.
sitetest
How do you explain 1 Timothy 2:5 with the above belief?
1 Timothy 2 Pray for All Men Pray for Everyone
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
7for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ[1] and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Notice we are told to pray for all men, but our only mediator is Christ Jesus. Not Mary, not Paul, not any other Saint. Jesus Christ alone.
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