Posted on 07/25/2002 5:31:43 AM PDT by Notwithstanding
So far on this thread he has steadfastly refused to admit whether or not he thinks the Novus Ordo is invalid. You aren't the first to ask, I hope you have better luck, but I suspect by now he is afraid to answer that. Perhaps repeating the question will help.
patent
Yes, I see what you're saying. It hadn't occured to me that perhaps I wasn't getting an answer to my question because he would prefer not to admit that assisting at a Mass of Pope Paul VI would fulfill one's Sunday Obligation.
So, I'll ask it this way, "Do all 'traditional Catholics' at least attempt to fulfill their Sunday Obligation either by attending a traditional Mass or a Mass of Pope Paul VI?"
sitetest
Got a link to these numbers? They look fishy.
The excommunication of Archbishop Lefebvre was probably not valid. First, because it was imposed despite his defense of necessity, which was permitted by Canon Law. Right or wrong, the canons state explicitly he need only have believed such a state to have existed.Once again, The Pope wrote Canon law, he decides what is or is not a state of necessity.
Canon law depends from his authority, not from Lefebvres state of mind. Canon law cannot reverse what the Pope does, that would be an absurdity. And the Pope declared it a schism, and declared Lefebvre excommunicated. If you think you can judge the Popes decision, you are a heretic.
Second, the canons do not equate disobedence to a papal command with schism.No, but when the Pope calls it a schism, it is one. He determines the communion, not you. And when he excommunicates you, e.g., you are no longer in communion with him, you are in schism.
Most Vatican officials privately don't believe a schism ever occured, but they use the term to dampen enthusiasm for a movement that threatens modernism.Ah yes, now you are reading the minds of most Vatican officials. You not only want to be your own Pope, but God as well?
patent +AMDG
Not only that, but they ignore the fact that Mass attendance started dropping before the Novus Ordo in 1970, not when it was introduced.He himself recognized the Novus Ordo as a huge mistake--Mass attendance declined in a single year after it was instituted, from 74% of all Catholics, to 60%. (Gallup.) The number is now down to 17% and still dropping like a stone annually.Got a link to these numbers? They look fishy.
Further, any sociologist would tell you that you cant attribute a sociological shift to one variable changing when the fact is that in society hundreds of variables were all changing at the same time. It just isnt logical or rational, but its done.
patent +AMDG
AMEN.
Totally different situation than Lefebvre
Carry on.
After you. Stop attacking the Faith and I will cease counter-attacking.
It is very odd, to me anyways, that so many desire liberty to attack The Magisterium and demand they be able to do so unopposed as though there was some Canonincal Right to oppose Divinely-constituted authority.
Several times on this thread you have made statements about facts concerning the magisterium and Patent, Sitetest and myself have provided documentaion your attacks are without merit. You have yet to apologise and admit your charges were false. Perhaps instead of being so sensitive about your own self, you could be more aware of who it is you are attacking - The Pope. I at least have the sense of fairness to resist you to YOUR face, not behind your back
Patent and sitetest and I all have different approaches to defending the Faith. When I was Confirmed I accepted the duty to defend the Faith not attack it. I am doing my best.
I suggest that if you cannot stand the rhetorical heat than you flee the schismatic kitchen.
I see you have no problem calling a Cardindal a heretic, and rejecting the Curia that speaks in the Pope's name, so, buck-up :)
"I see you have no problem calling a Cardindal a heretic,..."
"When a Cradinal rejects..."
Gee, I hadn't realized that you guys were so far apart. Can't even agree on a common spelling for cardinal.
;-)
sitetest
Show me any church official (ie Cardinal) who says its open to debate. Your Msgr is respected but not the final word. The final word is that of JPII and Ratzinger. They both trump your Msgr card.
Schism is defined as a morally evil act requiring an intention to deny the primacy of the papacy itself.No, it isnt. Denying the primacy of the papacy is heresy, per Vatican Is definition.
Canon law defines schism as the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him. When the Pope excommunicates you, you are not in communion. Furthermore, most the SSPX will not act in communion with the members of the Church subject to the Pope. They wont obey bishops, they wont attend the Novus Ordo, etc. They wont even attend an indult. They are not in communion.
But Lefebvre never denied the Pope's role as Supreme Pontiff.That only means he is not a heretic.
Most Vatican theologians dismiss the schism charge.Reading minds again? Please prove this.
In fact, it would be ridiculous on the face of it to think that people who are so thoroughly in line with Catholicism on every front were schismatic. Disobedient, yes. But that is another matter.Yes, after all when the Pope issues a decree of excommunication, and calls it a schism, it is ridiculous to think he is right, and that he has the authority to do these things. How dare he excommunicate our hero!
You deny a papal judgment, in contravention of Vatican Is strictest statements, and you say Im being ridiculous on the face of it? You have chutzpah, but your theology is wrong. Ill stick with the Pope on this, not you.
True, they dropped when the word first got out that the old Mass would be superceded. They dropped from around 80% to 74%. Then when the Novus Ordo hit the parishes, the bottom fell out. It's been downhill ever since. It's now around 17%.LOL, nice save attempt. The Mass attendance rates began dropping before the Novus Ordo. You cant deny it. Nor can you prove its the Novus Ordos fault, and not some other aspect of society, or of our Church, such as bad priests and bishops, factors you by your very bent believe are out there.
patent +AMDG
Gentlemen,Heretics."I see you have no problem calling a Cardindal a heretic,..."
"When a Cradinal rejects..."
Gee, I hadn't realized that you guys were so far apart. Can't even agree on a common spelling for cardinal.
;-)
sitetest
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