Mark Twain on the Book of Mormon

Roughing It | 1872 | Mark Twain

[RnMomof7]

I THINK HM (HMS) was/were the wive(s )of the HF before they were perfected.........I think they would use the term eternal in the same sense they use it for HF and Jesus even thought HF is the father of Jesus..

It is only confusing if you think about it steve.. :>)

[Grig]

"Mercy and justness are two different aspects of his personality and they do not overlap"

There is a story of something that happened in the civil war that I think illustrates our view.

There was a private who fell asleep at his post one night, and as a result the fort he was helping to guard was taken and many men killed. He was court-martialed and sentenced to death.

The mother of this soldier petitioned the president to revoke the death penalty. She told the president that the war had already taken her husband and her other 3 sons and that this boy was all she had left. She asked that his sentance be reduced to a prison term, not for his sake, and not because he deserved it, but for her sake. The president granted her petition and was never critisized for it.

Likewise Christ will plead for us. Mercy does not come at the expense of justice, and none will be kept out of heaven for reasons beyond their control or ability.

[Grig]

"So the repetance would follow the proxie baptism? ...Would the acceptance and repetance be seen as possible without the baptism or does it have to follow the baptism."

A proxie baptism has no effect on anything untill the person it is done for accepts it, and they could only do that after repentance. So, in theory, a person could die on Monday, have a proxie baptism done for him the next day, but they would have to be taught the gospel, accept it and repent before they could accept the proxie baptism. At that point it becoms as if they were baptised when they accept it. The order does not change, first is faith, then repentance, then baptism.
"Does this mean it is only applicible to those that never heard as opposed to those that heard and did not believe."

see #233

[RnMomof7]

Hey Cubicle Guy. You know any more about Heavenly Mother beyond her marriage to HF and her having spirit babies, incluing Jesus...

funny line:>)

I do have a question (so whats new:>)

Our existence as unorganized intelligence comprised the major portion of our first estate.

Where do the intelligences come from?

[RnMomof7]

I missed the post.......But I could have taken a shot at a few...:>))

[restornu]

There was a private who fell asleep at his post one night, and as a result the fort he was helping to guard was taken and many men killed. He was court-martialed and sentenced to death.

Did hear that one by Cleon Skousen talk on The Meaning of Atonement?

[RnMomof7]

I think I get it as well as I am going to, thanks...

I do have a question thought .If the HF intended all men to have an opportunity to hear the gospel and have the temple ordinances preformed for them..what about all the people that live and die without a recorded birth?

[P-Marlowe]

what about all the people that live and die without a recorded birth?

If we don't know if they were born, then how do we know they are dead?

[drstevej]

Oh I see. In eternity they (HF & HM or HMS) were imperfect and became perfect. Perhaps they took a correspondance course from Kolob University.

Jesus, on the other hand, can't be eternal but I guess he took the correspondance course at the Kolob University Earth extension!

I can see why no more is revealed, it gets sticky.

I'm just beginning to study the King Follett Discourse and it does get sticky and confusing. For instance.....

First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they should understand the character and being of God; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. [That he was not is an idea] incomprehensible to some. But it is the simple and first principle of the gospel-to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another. God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power." To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it.

Here, then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves--to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done--by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

[T. P. Pole]

Dang it! I just wrote a long response to the Mother in Heaven question, and then lost the window.

I'll try again.

I pulled out my handy-dandy LDS Infobase Library (a software package with several thousand LDS books and articles on CD in searchable form), and searched. "Heavenly Mother" got about 40 hits. "Mother in Heaven" got about 80. Since there are many duplicates, I think it is safe to say that a well stocked LDS library has about 20-30 references to Heavenly Mother.

There are three notable ones. First is from Joseph Fielding Smith (a prophet of the church). He compiled a book called "Answers to Gospel Questions" where he, of course, answers gospel questions. One question was about Heavenly Mother. You can see it on the web here.

Second is a talk given by Hinckely to the women of the church on Sep 28, 1991. You can find the talk here. I've been having trouble getting this to link correctly, but you can also get to it on the LDS web page. Go to Gospel Library, Church Publications, Ensign, 1991, Nov, Daughters of God.

The pertinent part of the talk is near the end. RnMomof7 has been asking about praying to Heavenly Mother. He covers it here, too.

The third is an article in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism and can be found on the web here.

Nibley was another one who covered the topic, but CubicleGuy already covered that one.

[drstevej]

Great resources T.P. P Thanks....

I liked this quote:

In Genesis we read:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: . . .So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:26-27)

Is it not feasible to believe that female spirits were created in the image of a "Mother in Heaven"?

by President Joseph Fielding Smith
Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 3, p.144
Copyright by Deseret Book

=======

Rn, Just maybe....YOU are made in HM's image and I am made in HF's image!

[RnMomof7]

If we don't know if they were born, then how do we know they are dead?

Well that is my thought.....hard to build a meaningful history like that and put together the pieces like that

[RnMomof7]

Hand up waving wildy ..was my answer way off the mark?

[RnMomof7]

Dont you hate it when all your work just goes? Makes me nuts

I went to read the encyclopedia and I saw this scripture used..(I believe it was quoted else where today)

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." This and other scriptures underscore not only spiritual sibling relationships but heirship with God, and a destiny of joint heirship with Christ (Rom. 8:16–18; cf. Mal. 2:10).

I just do not see how that can be used as a proof text for being born spirit children

To me the reading is clear.

The Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirits of our salvation........it is an assurence scripture

Would you explain how you get anything other than that out of it?

[drstevej]

Another fascinating quote from the reference you cite:

As early as 1839 the Prophet Joseph Smith taught the concept of an eternal mother, as reported in several accounts from that period. Out of his teaching came a hymn that Latter-day Saints learn, sing, quote, and cherish, "O My Father," by Eliza R. Snow. President Wilford Woodruff called it a revelation (Woodruff, p. 62).

In the heav´ns are parents single?
No, the thought makes reason stare!
Truth is reason; truth eternal
Tells me I´ve a mother there.
When I leave this frail existence,
When I lay this mortal by,
Father, Mother, may I meet you
In your royal courts on high? [Hymn no. 292]

Encyclopedia of Mormonism

---

IMO, the concept of Heavenly Parents makes "reason stare!"

[RnMomof7]

Rn, Just maybe....YOU are made in HM's image and I am made in HF's image!

I have been told I look just like my dad......nuf said!

[restornu]

Is there anyother software on these topics?

[Grig]

Yes, it's not doctrine, but I think it's on the mark.

[Grig]

"If the HF intended all men to have an opportunity to hear the gospel and have the temple ordinances preformed for them..what about all the people that live and die without a recorded birth? "

God knows them, if it requires revelation to get the information, the revelation will come sometime in the millenium. God expects us to do what we can do ourselves
first, and we are not close to being done that yet.

[White Mountain]

Your #295: IMO, the concept of Heavenly Parents makes "reason stare!"

Things are better when we stick to the Scriptures. You do not have a problem that we are created in the image of God, male and female, for the Bible says so, but you say it must not be taken literally.

You do not have a problem with the Fatherhood of God, as long as it is not understood literally, like fathers here, for that would imply a Mother.

Your problem with us is that we believe the whole Bible. We understand these things literally.

Luke 3:37
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Do you accept verse 37 as proof that Enoch did not have a mother, that Jared begat him in some other way?

Do you think verse 38d, "which was the son of God", is inconsistent with other parts of the Bible, such as the account of the creation of Adam in Genesis or the references to Jesus as the Only Begotten Son?

You may recall me saying before that the Scriptures are very modest and circumspect when referring to the very sacred way in which we are conceived and born into this world. After reading these threads, it should be clear to anyone why this is so. Some posters here are obsessed, and they need to look in the mirror rather than accuse someone else of being obsessed. Let's treat sacred things in a sacred way.