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Talk.Origins: Deception by Omission
TrueOrigins ^ | 06/13/02 | Jorge A. Fernandez Jorge A. Fernandez

Posted on 06/13/2002 12:57:29 PM PDT by medved

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1 posted on 06/13/2002 12:57:30 PM PDT by medved
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To: medved
saving a seat.
2 posted on 06/13/2002 1:02:38 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: medved
Ted, this is supposed to be a conservative news forum. We are supposed to at least pretend that we are educated adults, yet you bring this to the discussion:

I thought Freepers who lurk on the crevo threads might find this interesting. The talk.origins web site is probably the source of 90% of the materials which evolutionists on FR link to.

Never end a sentence with a preposition.

(I am sorry. I just could not resist.)
3 posted on 06/13/2002 1:07:46 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
Best English usage would be "to which evolutionists link". Nonetheless this is a case in which best usage is so far from the language as it actually works in common practice that the best usage would sound affected to most people.
4 posted on 06/13/2002 1:12:08 PM PDT by medved
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To: Dimensio
Never end a sentence with a preposition.

This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.

5 posted on 06/13/2002 1:12:22 PM PDT by Honcho Bongs
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To: Dimensio
Never end a sentence with a preposition.

Yeah. I agree. A preposition is a very bad thing to end a sentence with!

6 posted on 06/13/2002 1:14:03 PM PDT by john in missouri
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To: john in missouri
Aieeeee!!! *implode*
7 posted on 06/13/2002 1:15:29 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
Aieeeee!!! *implode*

It worked.

8^D

8 posted on 06/13/2002 1:17:45 PM PDT by john in missouri
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To: medved
Great post!
I hope people will actually take the time to read the whole article.
9 posted on 06/13/2002 2:22:45 PM PDT by Heartlander
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To: Heartlander
The big lie...

Originally liberals were social conservatives who advocated growth and progess mostly technological(knowledge being absolute/unchanging)based on law--reality...the nature of man/govt. does not change.

Atheist secular materialists through evolution removed the foundations...made the absolutes relative and call all technology evolution(science) to substantiate their efforts--claims...social engineering--PC!

Liberals/Evolution BELIEVE they are the conservatives too!

What's left?

10 posted on 06/13/2002 3:00:43 PM PDT by f.Christian
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To: Heartlander
Great post! I hope people will actually take the time to read the whole article.

The guy does a pretty good job of dissecting t.o and exposing it for what it actually is. My own experiences with the t.o FAQs is that they do not come remotely close to withstanding any sort of a close examination.

11 posted on 06/13/2002 3:43:36 PM PDT by medved
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To: medved
This is good:

“I can think of no better illustration of this than the case of intelligent design theory (ID). Leaving out numerous details, ID is having a difficult time being accepted into the scientific establishment as a bona fide scientific theory simply because it has metaphysical—in fact theistic—implications. After all, if the logical conclusion is that specified and complex design is present, then a designer is the only available option and the big ‘G’ immediately enters the realm of possibilities. Naturalists were quick to pick up on this rather obvious and, to them, highly unpalatable conclusion and as a result ID is being treated by many as if it were advocating the practice of human sacrifices.”

“The fact of the matter is that ID is as robust a scientific theory as one should reasonably expect, having all of the components—foundation, logical/mathematical formulation, explanatory/predictive power, etc.—that other widely accepted scientific theories have. For more details on this I recommend two sources: The Design Inference, Cambridge University Press, 1998 by William Dembski and Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science and Theology, InterVarsity Press, 1999 also by William Dembski.”

“To summarize this point, ID is not being scorned because it is bad science or illogical, but because it crosses the line that separates one metaphysical worldview from another. The “people in charge”, i.e., the naturalistic scientific establishment, are unwilling to allow that to happen—naturalism must be protected at all costs, from their point of view. Why doesn’t TO mention or elaborate on any of this to its readers? Deception by omission.

ID does not specify any religious faith. I know an atheist who believes ID over molecular evolution just based on facts. (and is really starting to question the whole theory of evolution) He is not an intellectual slouch either. Even the Christian evolutionist believes that life exists because of an Intelligent Designer.

Anyway, the only religion that is totally opposed to ID are Naturalists. And their opposition is clearly not based upon science.

12 posted on 06/13/2002 4:11:58 PM PDT by Heartlander
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To: Heartlander
There are a number of seriously good points in the article. The item which caught my attention most of all was this:

As far as the ability to 'falsify' evolution consider the following:

Now, some may choose to argue that these distinguished gentlemen are simply doing 'science'-proposing theories to explain observations, among other things. However...

The term to remember here was 'falsifiable'-and, to take just one example, we might ask ourselves how one goes about falsifying an infinite number of universes.

Here's the point to all of this:

If we are allowed to propose essentially anything (aliens, parallel universes, 10^20 planets, extra dimensions, time travel, etc., etc.) in order to uphold our theory then how will it ever be possible for that theory to be truly falsifiable? As clever and imaginative as we humans are, wouldn't we be able to-don't we-contrive just about anything that would allow us to retain the position or theory that we cherish?

Well, not always. All human cleverness and imagination could not save the phlogiston theory, the notion of blood humors, the geocentric model, and many other now defunct ideas. There is, however, one major difference where evolution is concerned-a difference that makes evolution impervious to that which toppled these aforementioned and now extinct ideas. That difference is the intimate and critical connection between evolution and philosophical naturalism-a metaphysical (i.e., religious) connection.

As the universally recognized and accepted authority on what is admissible as 'scientifically valid', the scientific establishment (anchored in naturalism) has constructed the rules so that evolution is the de facto answer. This matter may be expanded in many directions so I'll end on this note: eliminate evolution and what are the remaining options? Naturalists know well that to eliminate evolution is to eliminate the single possibility for a natural explanation of the origin of life and of biodiversity. Therefore, evolution must be sustained even if this requires hypothesizing the preposterous or the unfalsifiable. The only other alternative, the supernatural, is simply not admissible.


13 posted on 06/13/2002 4:46:03 PM PDT by medved
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To: Dimensio
I recall that Winston Churchill responded to someone criticizing him for ending a sentence with a preposition with the famously convoluted, "This is the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put."
14 posted on 06/13/2002 4:59:59 PM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: The_Reader_David
I recall that I was just being silly when I made the comment.

The True Origins article falls apart on its own merit (or lack thereof). I won't pretend that Ted's grammatical faux pas has any bearing on the truth value of the argument presented.
15 posted on 06/13/2002 5:17:06 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Dimensio
Shed some light… What are ‘your’ issues?
16 posted on 06/13/2002 5:31:25 PM PDT by Heartlander
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To: The_Reader_David
I recall that Winston Churchill responded to someone criticizing him for ending a sentence with a preposition with the famously convoluted, "This is the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put."

That's not "famously convoluted"; it's basically just English words with quasi-German grammar. The simplest examples are order of time and place. An English-speaking person thinks "I have to be at John's at 9 PM"; if he forgets anything, it's the second part of the deal, i.e. when he's supposed to be at John's. A German on the other hand thinks "Ich muss um acht Uhr bei Johannes sein"; if HE forgets anything, it will be where the hell he's supposed to be at eight o-clock.

17 posted on 06/13/2002 6:18:02 PM PDT by medved
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To: medved
bump
18 posted on 06/13/2002 9:32:37 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: The_Reader_David
"This is the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put."

Just because I'm incredibly pedantic...

In the context of "I will not put up with your attitude", "up" is an adverb as it modifies the verb "put". It is perfectly acceptable to end a sentence with an adverb. As such, Churchill's attempt at ridicule would have been gramattically correct when phrased with the common usage.
19 posted on 06/14/2002 4:55:51 AM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Doc On The Bay; Swordmaker; vannrox;Confederate Keyester;Aquinasfan;goody2shooz;Psalm 73;AndrewC...
fyi
20 posted on 06/14/2002 5:55:20 AM PDT by medved
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