Posted on 05/13/2002 7:11:13 PM PDT by 1 spark
Zechariah 12:10,11 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
This is a mistranslation. An accurate translation of verse 10 is:
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
There is nothing messianic about this passage.
The Value of Prophecy T.A. McMahon [..snip…]
So what have I learned? Let's begin with the fundamentals. Prophecy has two biblical meanings. In a general sense, the term refers to everything God has to say to His rational creatures. The Bible, therefore, as God's specific revelation to mankind, is a completely prophetic book (2 Pt 1:19-21). It is His forthtelling us things we could not know otherwise. Prophecy also includes His foretelling, or telling us ahead of time what will take place. The ability to predict the future, which, as we said, pertains to nearly one-third of the Scriptures, is declared by God to be a major proof that He alone is God: "...I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done" (Is 46:9-10).
Nearly all predictive prophecy deals with Israel and the First and Second comings of the Messiah. In fact, God tells the Israelites that they will be a sign to the world, glorifying Himself in and through them (Is 46:13). In Isaiah 43:10 God declares to them, "Ye are my witnesses...and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." In other words, God will use them and their land to be "witnesses" both to themselves and to the world, not only that He exists, but that He is actively involved in shaping the history of Israel, as well as bringing about His purpose for all of mankind. Prophecy declares God's plan in advance. And the purpose is that we all may "know" Him, and "believe" in Him, and "understand" that He alone is God. Prophecy is compelling proof not only for the existence of God, but that the Bible is exactly what it claims to be—His Word!
Here is a sampling of God's prophetic witness through Israel: He declared to Abraham (Gn 12:1; 15:18), and then to Isaac (Gn 26:3), and after that to Jacob (28:13) that He would give them the land "from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Gn 15:18), and that this Promised Land would be theirs and that of their descendants forever (Jos 14:9). It is a fact of history, as the book of Joshua records, that the Israelites took possession of the land God promised. While His promise was irrevocable, He nevertheless warned them that should they cease to obey Him He would cast them out of the land for a time: disobedient Israel "shall be plucked from off the land whither [they] goest to possess it" (Dt 28:63). They were and He did —resulting in the Assyrian captivity of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Babylonian captivity of the Southern Kingdom (Judah).
Jeremiah prophesied that the captives would return from Babylon to Jerusalem "when 70 years [were] accomplished" (Jer 25:12). Even so, a still more devastating dispersion of the Jews was foretold: "And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other" (Dt 28:64). This, the last major diaspora, took place when the Roman army under Titus utterly destroyed Jerusalem in a.d. 70. Not only have the Jews been widely dispersed as the Bible predicted; God's Word also gives details as to how they would be treated: "And I will...deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them" (Jer 29:18). We know this today as anti-Semitism, yet it was first prophesied by Moses (Dt 28:37) 3,500 years ago!
It would seem that this dispersion, along with accompanying persecutions and attempts at annihilating the Jews, would have placed God in an untenable position. After all, He promised unconditionally to Abram (Abraham) that the Promised Land "which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever" (Gn 13:15). The Lord declared also that while Israel would not go unpunished, He would "not make a full end of thee," but would "save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob [Israel] shall return" (Jer 30:10-11).
That a scattered and persecuted minority could live for two thousand years or more among other races without being absorbed into them (especially when doing so could have avoided endless repression), and remain a uniquely identifiable ethnic group, is inconceivable—certainly beyond chance and without precedence in world history. Add to that astonishing fact that they would then be gathered from around the world and brought back to the land God promised to them more than three millennia ago. Yet as the world knows, this took place "officially" in 1948 when Israel was recognized as a sovereign nation.
Concerning this prophesied restoration, the Bible gives numerous related details of what would take place when the Jews returned to their land. Among these, the Book of Isaiah states that "[The Lord] shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit" (27:6); and Hosea adds that the Israelites "shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon." In the late 1800s a visiting Mark Twain noted that the Holy Land was almost entirely barren, yet since the return of the Jews agriculture has become one of Israel's top economic enterprises. This small country is now the leading exporter of fruit and vegetables to Europe, even shipping flowers to Holland!
The Hebrew prophets also foretold that restored Israel would exhibit an awesome military capability: "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left....In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them" (Zec 12: 6,8). Even a cursory review of Israel's three wars to protect itself from being destroyed by the surrounding Arab countries provides overwhelming proof that they are a fulfillment of Zechariah's God-given words. The1948-49 war following its independence had Israel hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned; her astounding victory, therefore, was nothing short of miraculous. The 1967 Six-day War, against overwhelming odds, was won so quickly and so decisively by Israel that Newsweek featured an article about it titled "Terrible Swift Sword." The 1973 Yom Kippur War found Israel again outnumbered and this time, because the attack came during its religious holiday, caught by surprise. Yet despite suffering heavy casualties, these beneficiaries of God's promise routed the combined Arab forces.
One last prophetic item regarding Israel and Jerusalem (from among the hundreds that could be given) has to do with its standing in the world today. Circa 480 b.c., Zechariah wrote that Jerusalem would become "a cup of trembling...a burdensome stone for all people" (12:2-3) This prediction was particularly astonishing because at the time it was made, the situation in Jerusalem makes it seem foolish at best. A portion of the Israelites had only recently returned from captivity in Babylon to a Jerusalem which had been desolate for 70 years. Its walls were destroyed, its fields fallow, and the remnant faced problems in even rebuilding the temple because they were unable to ward off the continual harassment by local Samaritans. Yet nearly 2,500 years later Jerusalem has indeed become "a cup of trembling" for this anxious world, a "burdensome stone" which, unless the problems there are resolved, everyone knows could bring nuclear conflagration upon the entire planet.
God is the God of prophecy. He is also the God of our salvation; and the former points to and underscores the latter. Israel was chosen of God for the primary purpose of bringing His Messiah into the world "that the world through him might be saved" (Jn 3:17). When the Apostle Paul went on his missionary journeys, his approach in each city he visited was first to enter the Jewish synagogue and preach that Jesus was the Messiah whom God had promised. In the synagogue of the Greek city of Berea, the Jews were commended not only for listening to what the apostle had to say, but more specifically because they "searched the scriptures daily, [to discern] whether those things [he said concerning the Messiah] were so" (Acts 17:10-11). Although we don't have the details of what he preached, we do know that there were hundreds of messianic prophecies to which he could refer.
No doubt he listed for them the prophetic criteria necessary for wannabe messiahs to qualify as God's Christ, the Savior of all mankind: He must be born in Bethlehem (Mic 5:2); He must be from the tribe of Judah (Gn 49:10); His lineage must be from King David (Is 11:1); He must be born of a virgin (Is 7:14); He must demonstrate a miracle-filled life (Is 35:4-6); He must die for the sins of the world (Is 53:5,6,10); He must be three days and nights in the grave (Jon 1:17); He must be resurrected from the dead (Ps 16:10).
Only Jesus qualified.
For those first-century Bereans desiring more information about the Messiah's sacrificial death, Paul could have supplied so many descriptive details from Old Testament prophecies (written as long as 1,500 to 400 years before the event) that it would have seemed to them as if they had been there themselves. Consider the following: Daniel gives us the exact day the Messiah will enter Jerusalem to be hailed as Israel's King (9:25). Zechariah tells us He will be riding upon a donkey (9:9) and that He will be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (11:12); the betrayal will be by a friend (Ps 41:9). Isaiah predicts He will be silent before His accusers and then smitten and spat upon (53:7; 50:6). Moses indicates that He will be crucified (Dt 21:22-23). The psalmist tells us that the crowds present at His crucifixion will scorn and mock Him, and shake their heads at Him (22:7-8; 109:25); that His friends will watch from afar (38:11); that soldiers will gamble for His clothes (22:16-18); that for His thirst they will offer Him gall to drink (69:21); His hands and feet will be pierced (22:16); none of His bones will be broken (34:20); the very words which He will cry out to the Father are given (22:1; 31:5). Zechariah writes that His side will be pierced (12:10). Isaiah declares that He will die among thieves (53:9,12) and that He will be buried in a rich man's grave (53:9). Moreover, Isaiah gives the reasons that the Son of God went to the cross: He was "wounded for our transgressions"; "the Lord hath laid upon him the iniquity of us all"; and "thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin" (Is 53:5, 6,10). Once again, only Jesus qualifies to be our Savior.
What then of all the prophecies yet to be fulfilled? Since what was predicted regarding Christ's First Coming was perfectly fulfilled, we can be absolutely confident God will bring to pass all that He has foretold.
So, what profit is there in prophecy? Much in every way, to borrow two phrases from Romans. The Lord tells us, "...who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it,...and the things that are coming, and shall come. ....Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses"(Is 44:7-8). Biblical prophecy assures us that God exists, and that He alone knows "the things that are coming," and we who have faith in Him have no reason to walk in "fear." More than that, we are to be God's "witnesses," using biblical prophecy as a testimony to the revealed truth of the Scriptures and proof that faith alone in Jesus, His only begotten Son, is mankind's only hope for salvation. Let us therefore eagerly share the good news, "the gospel of God (which he promised afore by His prophets in the holy scriptures), concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom 1:1-3).
TBC
No doubt that's what the Jews thought when the early church came up with Jesus was equal to God, and part of a trinity.
1. I'd say that he is too quick to label something as "prophecy".
2. Much of what he deems prophetic is not.
3. Most of what he cites that really is prophetic is not messianic.
No doubt he listed for them the prophetic criteria necessary for wannabe messiahs to qualify as God's Christ, the Savior of all mankind: He must be born in Bethlehem (Mic 5:2); He must be from the tribe of Judah (Gn 49:10); His lineage must be from King David (Is 11:1); He must be born of a virgin (Is 7:14); He must demonstrate a miracle-filled life (Is 35:4-6); He must die for the sins of the world (Is 53:5,6,10); He must be three days and nights in the grave (Jon 1:17); He must be resurrected from the dead (Ps 16:10).
The first of these three passages are valid messianic prophecies (although Jews interpret "out of Bethlehem" to mean that moshiach comes from the line of David, not that he necessarily is born there). The rest are not. The primary prophecies the messiah must fulfill (within his lifetime--there is nothing in the Hebrew scriptures that prophecies a second coming of the messiah) are:
1. World peace. (Isaiah 2:4)
2. Universal knowledge of God. (Isaiah 11:9)
3. Ingathering of all Jews to Israel. (Isaiah 43:5 and elsewhere)
4. Building of the third temple (Ezekiel 37:14 and elsewhere)
None of these things were accomplished in Jesus's lifetime.
You state 'the rest are not' [messianc prophecy] and cite some you consider that do qualify.
What criteria disqualify those passages you said were not messianic prophecy?
Why does OT scripture preclude one messiah coming twice?
Thanks
He came as the savior the first time and will come the second time as KING and judge and accomplish these things, how many times do I have to tell you these simple things? Come over here, I'm going to "slap" you. :)
BigMack
Let me take this point first. You mention many, many passages as being prophetic of the messiah. Tell me, where exactly in the Hebrew scriptures does it say that the messiah will come, die, be resurrected, and then come back at some point in the indefinite future to finish the job?
So, educate me for a moment if you would please about what Jewish scholars deem 'messianic prophecy'.
Would you agree that the passages I cite pertain to the messiah?
You state 'the rest are not' [messianc prophecy] and cite some you consider that do qualify. What criteria disqualify those passages you said were not messianic prophecy?
It varies from passage to passage. Some of the common disqualifiers are: the passage has been mistranslated; the prophecy pertains to contemporary events, not to the messiah; or the passage is not prophetic at all.
It is probably best to take these case by case. I will raise one example to start. Isaiah 7:14, rendered in many Christian bibles as "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el." The Hebrew word used in this passage is almah, which means "young woman". Some modern Christian bibles recognize this, and have corrected the text to read accordingly. Had Isaiah wanted to say "virgin", he would have used the word betulah. This type of mistranslation is not uncommon. The purpose clearly is to force the text to "fit" the Christian template.
The prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 was made to King Azaz, and was fulfilled within several years of its utterance. It would have been of little comfort to Azaz in his circumstances to hear of a sign that would not appear for 700 years.
LOL! Catholicguy ticked me off; don't mess with me. ;o)
I really want to understand why you/Jewish scholars think OT scripture precludes one messiah coming twice. I would appreciate your thoughts as to which OT scriptures bear on this.
Methinks you underestimate our Jewish brethren.
Go to JEWS FOR JUDIASM and then click on KNOWLEDGE BASE in the blue left hand margin. Next, at the very top of the page, you can use the KNOWLEDGE BASE box, choose CRUCIFIXION,go there, and read....OR just click on the little red "here" underneath the KNOWLEDGE BASE box, to go to a list of questions. Zech 12:10 is under the CRUCIFIXION topic. This site is a wealth of information. There are other similar ones out there, too.
Let me put it this way. To say that the Hebrew scriptures do not preclude a messiah who comes twice is to make an argument from silence. To take the point to absurdity, suppose I posit that the messiah will come wearing a gorilla costume. Now, the Hebrew scriptures don't explicitly say that he won't come wearing a gorilla costume, so am I not therefore entitled to speculate that it might happen?
You had stongly asserted previously
The primary prophecies the messiah must fulfill (within his lifetime--there is nothing in the Hebrew scriptures that prophecies a second coming of the messiah) are:
And I thought you might have some positive scriptural defense for that view...I simply had hoped to learn from it.
You be BAD bro. :)
"MackDaddy"
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