Vatican Says Jews' Wait For Messiah Is Validated by Old Testament

International New York Times ^

[Starwind]

Somewhere in history there could be and probably is a decree from Ezra or the elders or the Jewish governor of Judea around 453BC authorizing the building of Jerusalem with the funds left over from Artaxerxes' 458 BC decree.

Actually, this is in fact the content of Artaxerxes 1st decree...see Ezra 7:14 "14 You are sent by the king and his seven advisers to inquire about Judah and Jerusalem with regard to the Law of your God, which is in your hand"

I construe "in your hand" to mean 'up to you', 'under your control', 'as you see fit'...similar to what we mean when we say Cyrus (for example) came to be king over Babylon 'by his own hand'.

I'm also leery of relying on extra-biblical 'decrees' to make God's case.

Regarding a crucifixion year of 31 AD, one of the key pivot points in any timeline will be was crucifixion on a thursday (john) or friday (synoptics) and in what years did Passover fall on Thursday or Friday.

Of what significance is "The astrological chart showing that the Sun was in Virgo moon under the feet on Sept 11"? That word 'astrological' gives me pause.

[Starwind]

Meant to also add, regarding the construction of a timeline of the 69 weeks, that it was to the coming of an anointed one, not to their cutting off, though it followed. I think the timeline pivots on either a birth or an anointing/baptism.

The intellectual steps we ought to pursue are:
1) establish a timeline that fits the pivotal points (decree, anointing), as these are explicitly dated events.
2) establish additional best-fit timepoints for birth, ministry, crucifixion, as these are undated, but implied.

[Woodkirk]

As soon as I finished writing the previous post, the following came to mind.:

Daniel is 9:25 says that from the commandment to the Messiah Prince will be 49 + 62 septads. He doesn't say that is measured to the date that he is cut off, but only to his coming. Measuring from 458 BC, assuming a 3 BC birthdate, 483 years brings us to 26 AD which is Jesus' 30th birthday when he could legally assume the office of Messiah. The 483 years is measured from the date of the commandment [458BC] to his "coming" or 30th birthday [26AD].

Now Daniel in the following verse [26] says that after 62 septads [434 years] he will be "cut off". These 434 years appear to be measured from the words that precede it: "the wall and streets shall be built". In other words, 434 years from the completion of the wall and the streets. The wall took only 52 days but the streets probably could not be completed until after the buildings were finished. If it took until 404 BC to complete the rebuilding of Jerusalem, which is more than likely, then the 62 septads measured from there would take us to 31 AD and the date of the "cutting off" of the Messiah.

Perhaps then, the 458 BC date is correct taking us in 483 years to the 30th birthday of Jesus in 26 AD [the coming of the Messiah the Prince], and the 404 BC is the date when the building of Jerusalem was finished, with the Messiah who had come then being cut off 434 years later [31 AD].

This could be the correct interpretation and the reconciling of Daniel with historically-accepted dates and existing documentation.

Godspeed WK was rebuiltit may have first numbers are to his coming, the second

[Woodkirk]

The word "astrological" gives me pause as well, but John's description of the Woman who gives birth in Revelation as being in the heavens is, according to one of your links, that astrological sign of Virgo which was over Jerusalem from August 15 to October 1 of 3 BC -- for what it is worth.

The 483 years measured from 458 probably takes us to Jesus' 30th [at 26 AD] not his baptism which probably came later in his 30th year which would have been into 27 AD. It may have been just before his 31st birthday.

458 BC -- 404 BC -- 3 BC -- 26AD -- 27AD -- 31 AD. These could be the right numbers.

[Starwind]

I see you're trying to find some significance to the 1st 7 weeks, which ought to be significant, given the way it was stated.

However, if you agree with the timeline I layed out, the two endpoints cannot be budged more than a year at either end, or the math fails (or you're forced to reconstrue the decree or the anointing). Artaxerxes 1st decree to Ezra in 458 is one endpoint, and the 'coming' of an Anointed Prince 483 years later is the other. At the other (2nd) endpoint, an anointing or coming must be reasonably construed. A mere birthday I don't think would suffice, nor would crucifixion (a cutting off).

So Christ's baptism seems the 2nd endpoint.

All else of significance about '7 weeks' needs to be layed out within those endpoints. But unlike the 70th week, you can't separate the two periods. They must be contiguous, else they won't add up to 483 years because then one endpoint will be off. So while I see what you're trying to achieve with the 404 BC, I think mathematically it should be 458-49 = 409 BC, or less obvious would be to reverse the sequence as 62 weeks + 7weeks would imply 458 - 434 = 24 BC...but scripturally I have to dispute that interpretation.

You might try searching for events in 411-407 BC range, and if you find one then try to confirm any significance against scripture, then try to re-confirm or refine the estimation of the date to more like 409 BC...assuming it isn't reliably fixed.

[Starwind]

I meant to add (too impatient today) that I was searching for info on when the rebuild of Jerusalem could be construed as completed (could it take 49 years? - maybe)...but I'd like to see some history to back that up...I've not seriously searched for that yet.

[Starwind]

A number of Jewish scholars and leaders said they were pleased but stunned and would have to take some time to digest fully the complicated, 210-page study, published in French and Italian.

The oddest thing about the document from the Jewish perspective is that it was so quietly released. It has been in bookstores here since November, but as a small book titled "The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures in the Christian Bible," it drew no notice until the Italian news agency ANSA printed a small report on it Wednesday.

Help, please?

I have been searching for this book "The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures in the Christian Bible," but can not find it. I find many news reports about but can't find it available for sale, nor online.

Could someone knowledgeable in obtaining Vatican publications point me to where it's available in English, ideally online, else as hardcopy for purchase?

I'm somewhat guessing at your interest and background, and I apologize for my presumptions. Perhaps you could ping someone else on my behalf?

[Siobhan]

You might e-mail the Daughters of St. Paul who publish and sell most of the official publications. There e-mail address is epd@pauline.org.

[Starwind]

Thank you kindly. I have just now emailed them as per your suggestion.

I remain open to additional suggestions.

[JMJ333]

You can ping me whenever you like. I do not have any help to offer on your previous post. My apologies. Perhaps polycarp will be able to help when he logs on today. =)