God So Loved The World

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_52.html ^ | 5/3/02 | Prof. Homer C. Hoeksema

[drstevej]

rational Calvinists

...an oxymoron. :))

Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to find Calvin and Wesley standing together at the Pearly Gates to tell all of us "cut it out or you're not coming in."

Discussion of these issues is not a problem, even vigorous debate is not a problem. These are significant issues (more so than the political ones that receive so much attention on FR). The elevation (?) of vigorous debate to personal attack bothers me regardless of the theology at issue.

[xzins]

I read it again, and I'm fairly certain you said, "Yes, Calvinism is the gospel."

I'm sorry to hear you take that stand. It's not anti-Biblical, but it is unbiblical. It makes an "exalted teacher" out of a man, John Calvin.

[drstevej]

Private reply was made to your post. Thanks.

[Corin Stormhands]

"Is Calvinism the gospel?" is not a yes/no question, that's why.

But dr. steve., that statement has been made numerous times as "fact" by many of the Calvinists on these threads.

I'd be happy if those that made the statement would simply say "Calvinism is man's interpretation of the gospel." But we're faced with Arminianism being called the "Lie of Eden" and a "false" gospel.

No, Arminianism is man's interepretation of the gospel. So is Calvinism.

[drstevej]

Private reply was made to your post. Thanks.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Calvinism is a safeguard against distortion of the Gospel.

Bump for a good, succinct accounting.

Calvinism isn't anything more than a precise, accurate reading of God's word, beginning and ending with the acknowledgement of His total sovereignty.

All doctrine flows back from this truth.

[fortheDeclaration]

I read it again, and I'm fairly certain you said, "Yes, Calvinism is the gospel." I'm sorry to hear you take that stand. It's not anti-Biblical, but it is unbiblical. It makes an "exalted teacher" out of a man, John Calvin.

What they mean (but will not come out and say) that anything that teaches that man has to do something (like believe) is considered nongrace.

Calvinism is the total grace of God.

Those of us who bring man into the process as a decision maker are regarded as anti-grace (even though faith is not a work).

We are viewed synergists teaching that lie of Eden.

Hence, the belief that Calvinism is the true Gospel.

[Hank Kerchief]

When are you going to learn that you are not your own and you never ever were?

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Seems your language and the language of our Lord are somewhat in disagreement.

Hank

[CCWoody]

When are you going to learn that you are not your own and you never ever were? ~ CCWoody

• Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
• Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Seems your language and the language of our Lord are somewhat in disagreement.

And you non-Calvinist wonder why we claim you are always trying to dethrone God. Have you figured out what Biblical passages I'm using as a paraphrase to what I said?

As for me, I am His dirt to do whatsoever He wants. Which one of us do you figure is on the Rock and which one has built a doctrine of sand castles?

FYI, both of your cites agree with me. He who claims to be his own will lose his life and he who willingly gives himself to the kingdom and the King will have his soul forever.

[Corin Stormhands]

Superficial submission means nothing; only TOTAL surrender. And from what I've seen with your demands for unBiblical free will, you are very much in open rebellion against your Savior. When are you going to learn that you are not your own and you never ever were?

Woody, how can you TOTALLY surrender something that's not yours to begin with?

[fortheDeclaration]

Woody, how can you TOTALLY surrender something that's not yours to begin with?

Amen To surrender inplies a will that makes a decision.

Calvinism doesn't believe in surrender they believe in on and off buttons.

[Sinner]

792.

Yes, I do think that Paul is talking about his experience as a Christian, and that his cry of "O wretched man", followed by his proclamation of the victory to be had in Christ is an expression of his assurance that one day he would be delivered from the body of death that he inhabited.

All of us are awaiting the salvation of the body.

God be merciful to me a Sinner. Luke 18:13b

[JohnnyM]

"I'd like you to develope the issue of 'binding' further."

I have been out the past three days at a wedding, so I apologize for the delay. In regards to your question, I don't think I can answer it any fuller than I have, because I simply don't know. When I read that Satan will be bound in Revelations, it says to me, at least, that he will be totally out of the picture during Christ's reign. That he will not be around to tempt or devour people. That's the impression I get. It would be like having a mass murderer in prison, not being able to prey on the lives of others.

JM

[The Grammarian]

Yes, I do think that Paul is talking about his experience as a Christian, and that his cry of "O wretched man", followed by his proclamation of the victory to be had in Christ is an expression of his assurance that one day he would be delivered from the body of death that he inhabited.

Is the body evil? If it is, you're a Gnostic (and I don't mean that so much as an insult as a statement of fact--Gnostics believed that matter, and the body, were evil. So did the Manicheans, of whom Augustine counted himself until his conversion to Christianity). If it is not, then it is redeemable. God intends to redeem us. "And his name shall be called JESUS, for he shall save his people from their sins," not in their sins. Look at the whole context, Romans Six through Eight. Chapter Six ends on the note that the wages of sin is death, and Chapter Seven opens up with Paul speaking "to those that know the law." O wretched man that Paul is! Who (or 'what,' the Greek can be translated either way) shall save him from this body of death? Even if you think the non-sequitur line that the KJV and most modern versions follow is accurate, it says, I thank my God through Jesus Christ our Lord! Hey, lookie here! There's actually someone who's going to save us from this body of death! So when's it going to happen? Read Romans Eight. "Therefore there is now no condemnation." 'Therefore' in ch. 8 v. 1 has immediate reference to ch. 7 vv. 24,25. "I thank my God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans says that "the body is dead because of sin"--does it mean that the body is dead in sin? Or does it mean that it will suffer temporal death because of the sins it has committed? Let's compare. Romans 8, verses 6 and 10: "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." There are two different words used for 'death' in this passage. In Verse 6, it is thanatos, and in Verse 10, nekron. Two seperate words, one (thanatos) that has a clear implication of eternal misery in hell involved (another way that I've seen thanatos translated is as 'destruction'), the other (nekron) has reference to natural death, and sometimes to being"destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins" (which is how Strong's defines 'spiritually dead'), but never to eternal death.

[Sinner]

You wrote:"Hey, lookie here! There's actually someone who's going to save us from this body of death!"

As you asked me, "Is the body evil?" (Sorry, but my "assumption" is no less valid than yours.)

While I would agree with you that the believer is no longer subject to the condemnation resulting from sin, he or she is not yet delivered from the reality of that sin. We still await the redemption of the body.

God be merciful to me a Sinner. Luke 18:13b

[Jean Chauvin]

"When I read that Satan will be bound in Revelations, it says to me, at least, that he will be totally out of the picture during Christ's reign."

How does Rev 20 itself describe the 'binding'? Does it's description of the binding of Satan concur with your belief that Satan will be totally out of the picture during Christ's reign?

Jean

[The Grammarian]

While I would agree with you that the believer is no longer subject to the condemnation resulting from sin, he or she is not yet delivered from the reality of that sin. We still await the redemption of the body.

You have no support from Scripture for such a position. Our bodies are redeemed now, partially, and will be, some time before death (the only thing that comes after death is judgment, see Hebrews 9:27), fully. For you to declare that we will be redeemed completely from our sins at the point of death is unscriptural. Nowhere does Our Lord declare that death is our friend, nor that real, natural death is good for us in some way.

Go, and sin no more. (John 8:11b)

[JohnnyM]

"How does Rev 20 itself describe the 'binding'"

Rev 20:2-3
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

JM

[Jean Chauvin]

Does Rev 20 say, though, as you say that "...that he will be totally out of the picture during Christ's reign"

Or does Rev 20 give a different 'qualification' to Satan's binding?

Jean

[JohnnyM]

"bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer"

JM