Posted on 05/04/2002 4:43:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Of course..He knows that he could not choose to be right *grin*
Very good post. It saves me from dealing with several issues.
Oh, Barbra Streistand!
Let me affirm this: Any man, anywhere, at any time, can obey God and repent of his sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. However, no man will ever, anywhere, at any time, obey God and repent of his sin and belive on the Lord Jesus Christ without being born again by the Spirit of God.
And where did I do that? You must have missed what I said here: "There are only "seed planters" and "seed waterers". If there's going to be any "growth", that is totally God's doing."
GOD is the ONE who saves the souls he elected before the foundation of the world through his human instruments who plant and water.
Calvinist interpretation: God strictly commands all men everywhere to repent.
(It's what I preach! Never mind that the elect will repent and believe, and the rest will continue to wallow in their sin.)
[1] A general call to all withoutout exception to repent [Ex. your cited verse]
...many are called, few are chosen.
[2] An effectual call to the elect which results in repentance.
...whom He called, those He justified
See I just walk around picking up what falls from the table:>)
Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,
There's a couple of problems with your interpetation.
In this passage, God isn't speaking to Jews. He's speaking to pagan greeks. When he speaks about times of ignorance, it is a direct reference to this passage:
Act 17:23 For as I passed by and saw the things you worship, I also found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Not knowing then whom you worship, I make Him known to you.
It has nothing to do with Jews.
As further proof, the word used for "men" is the greek "anthropos"...MEN, not "ethnos" which is the greek word for gentiles, or nations, or type of men.
In addition, the phrase ALL MEN is "pas anthropos". "Pas" is always used to mean an entirety. All men, everyman. If it were just some men being called to repentence, it would be "tis anthropos", which is "some men" as used in 1 Timothy 5:24.
I can't read this scripture from Paul, who had a direct experience with Jesus Christ, the Lord God, without thinking that God is calling ALL MEN everywhere to repentence.
I should make it clear that I was not directing my post to you. I have noted that you have been most considerate and most rational in your posts. However, there are several on both sides that spoil the "debate" for everyone. My hands certainly aren't clean in that regard, but I've been attempting to limit my time here in order to avoid those situations. There are some posters, and some posts, I will simply ignore.
But what I won't ignore is the assertion by certain Calvinists that the Arminians won't/don't understand or consider their point of view when they have steadfastly refused to offer the same consideration or "charity" as they like to say to the Arminians. They will say it's because they know they are right.
Well, so do we.
And NO man, anywhere, any time, any place, any how, any hoo, annie oakley has a choice to be born again or not be born again according to the Calvinists. It's all decided for them.
According to Calvinism, the unregenerate can do anything he wants until he is regenerated/born again with the exception of choosing God.
Once someone is born again/regenerated through no work/will/desire/choice/action of their own they can still do anything they want with the exception of NOT choosing God.
Lots of little choices, but the big one is out of our reach.
Baloney. Many times it means "all manner", or "all types".
Who wants to show him? (I really don't have the time right now, and should be doing other things.)
Assuming that I don't argue against this statement on any level for one minute, let me ask you this: Why does this bother you?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8
Act 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Were they able to witness to "all " "everywhere"? Or just all that they encounterd?
3956 pas {pas}
including all the forms of declension; TDNT - 5:886,795; adj AV - all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26; 1243
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types ++++ ... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts -- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption
Doug all does not always mean all...
Isn't that what I said? An entirety. It can be paired with any word, but it always means an entirety of something. All mean, all manner, all types, every man, every dog.
It's the same word used here:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us- not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Briefly, who is the "us" in II Peter 3:9? God wants all of "us" to come to repentance.
(Hint, it isn't everyone, look at the context.)
And is doesn't mean is... :-)
Since Acts 22:15 is referring to Paul then it could go either way and since Acts 22:15 doesn't say "all men everywhere" then it could mean ALL men he came into contact with.
Paul is certainly a witness to ALL who read the bible. Paul is certainly a witness to all Christians.
But when you read this:
Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,
there's no question about it. All men everywhere is all men, everywhere.
What all Doug? All in the world? (Universalism) ,all that hear, or all that the Father send Him?
Think Doug God gave you a mind for a reason..think! :>))
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Doug God does order all men to repent...we have total aggrement on it..Do they? Why NOT..that Doug is the question
Doug the unregenerate man has no desire to repent..heck he doesn't even think he is all that bad. He compares himself to the guy next door and then he knows he is really pretty good. The unregenerate man can not compare himself to the Holy God..because he does not even want to look for him
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Man can not do something that he is not inclined to do by his nature..And the natural man will not even look for God , let alone repent..Doug He dose not WANT God..the unregenerate man does just as he want not as God wants
Only the grace of God can cause a man to see himself in relation ,not to his beer drinking neighbor, but to a sinless God
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Like a horse we must be LED to repentance by God
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Repentance is not a mater of self will it is a gift from God!
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Yes God expects all men everywhere to repent!Since all of us are sinners, we have a duty to return to God, but we are unable to do so. We simply do not have the ability. Because we are responsible for our sins before God and are commanded by Him to return to Him in repentance does not mean that we have the natural ability to do so.
"But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: 'LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?' For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.' These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him." (John 12:37-41)
The people described in this passage did not believe because they could not. Scripture clearly teaches that there are some things a lost person cannot do:
Cannot see - until he first be born again. (John 3:3)
Cannot understand - until he first be given a new nature. (1 Corinthians 2:14) Cannot come - until he first be effectually called by the Father. (John 6:44-45)
Calvinism teaches: [1] A general call to all withoutout exception to repent [Ex. your cited verse]
...many are called, few are chosen.</>
[2] An effectual call to the elect which results in repentance.
...whom He called, those He justified
1) So you agree with what I said?
2) Where have I said we don't have to be born again?
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