Sunday Roots

Romans chapter 14.

Ahhh...okay. Reading Romans 14 it's obvious that the whole chapter has something to do with eating and drinking, not sabbath keeping. The word for sabbath is never mentioned.

So to keep the context of the chapter clear, it's necessary to determine what is it about eating and drinking that this verse could be referring to:

Romans 14:5, 6: "One person esteems one day above another, another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord . . ."

Concerning this passage, Expositors Bible Dictionary says "The close contextual association as a time with eating suggests that Paul has in mind a special day set apart for feasting or as a time for fasting."

Certain jews fasted on specific days of the week. The controversy here was probably about those who fasted versus those who didn't, or possibly vegetarianism versus not. Either way it's about eating. The problem with most Christian doctrine is that they approach this verse with the supposition that since they don't believe in the validity of the sabbath, that this verse must be talking about that.

No, most Christians start with the presupposition that the way the church traditionally taught how a verse was interpreted was the way to interpret it., Nelson's Bible Dictionary notes that in Acts 15:20, 28-29 the Jerusalem council did not demand Sabbath observance. Again, Nelson's says that Paul's principle of Christian liberty about holy places and days comes from the Lord himself, when Jesus said he was greater than the temple (Matt 12:8)and Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:27-28)

The phrase "the Lord's Day" appears in Rev 1:10. Also, early Christians worshiped on the Lord's Day, ie Sunday, which was the day that Christ rose from the dead (1 Cor 16:2)

Supposedly, the majority of Christians accepted, like Justin Martyr, the idea that a) we need a day to worship, but b) in the new covenant, that day should be the day of the Lord. Indeed, Sunday is called "the Lord's Day", not necessarily the sabbath.

Now, if someone 1500 years later reads the bible and decides that Christians--not just Catholics, but the Syriac church in India and the Orthodox in Ethiopia (neither of whom were under Constantine)-- had it wrong for 1500 years, he or she is allowed to go out and start their own church.

However, it makes one wonder where the Lord was for 1500 years.

Personally, I agree with Paul that the whole thing is merely a way to sow confusion in the churches.

The phrase "the Lord's Day" appears in Rev 1:10. Also, early Christians worshiped on the Lord's Day, ie Sunday, which was the day that Christ rose from the dead (1 Cor 16:2)
You are taking a term from early Church writing and assuming that John meant the same thing. When the early Church father's used the term they did mean Sunday. We can not assume that a term at one period of history means the same thing at another time. For example, take the word Gay. What was meant by the term in the 20's and 30's is not what it means today. We need to look and see if what John meant was Sunday. First of all, who Was John? Was he not the same person who wrote the Gospel of John? Almost all scholars agree that he was. Most scholars say he wrote Revelations aroun 96 AD. Now lets take the Gospel of John. Most scholars say that it was written about the year 85 AD. Let look in the Gospel of John and see how he terms Sunday. He uses the term "First day of the week" 2 times in chapter 20 and not once did he use the term "Lord's day". It must be asked why he did not use the word "Lord's day" to show Sunday if that was the common useage back then.The only thing I will give you is that may the term come into being in the 11 year time frame. I would have to ask why the need to arise to change the term for Sunday. Another possible reasoning he using "Lord's day" is to denotote the coming events that he saw ie. Day of the Lord
As with 1 cor 16:2 it says nothing about a group collect. He also says nothing about any meeting. Paul says to "lay by him in store" ( a personal collection).
Supposedly, the majority of Christians accepted, like Justin Martyr, the idea that a) we need a day to worship, but b) in the new covenant, that day should be the day of the Lord. Indeed, Sunday is called "the Lord's Day", not necessarily the sabbath.
I think it has been shown why Martyr(and most of the church after the apostolic age) chose Sunday.

No, most Christians start with the presupposition that the way the church traditionally taught how a verse was interpreted was the way to interpret it.,

Well of course, Jesus kind of had a problem with religions teaching tradition instead of scripture. :-)

Mat 15:3 But He answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Nelson's Bible Dictionary notes that in Acts 15:20, 28-29 the Jerusalem council did not demand Sabbath observance.

The council also did not demand that they not murder, rob, worship false gods, honor their father and mother, covet, or take the Lord's name in vain. Did it give them license to violate any of these? No because it was understood that they were already keeping these.

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The people of that time *knew* that the 10 commandments consituted the heart of the covenent with God. The tablets of the 10 commandents were carried around in a vessel called "the Ark of the covenent". The 10 commandments had been taught every sabbath for generations.

There was no other day they would even think to worship on.

Again, Nelson's says that Paul's principle of Christian liberty about holy places and days comes from the Lord himself, when Jesus said he was greater than the temple (Matt 12:8)and Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:27-28)

Christian liberty to Paul did not mean abandoning a basic term of a coventual agreement with God, or total lawlessness.

1Jo 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.

The phrase "the Lord's Day" appears in Rev 1:10. Also, early Christians worshiped on the Lord's Day, ie Sunday, which was the day that Christ rose from the dead (1 Cor 16:2)

ClimoMike already did an excellent job of addressing this above. I would just like to add that even if this is talking about a day of the week, then the only day at that time that John would consider the Lord's day would be the sabbath, because:

Mat 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath.

True enough. Most of them did eventually accept it, but only because it was forced on them by what became the catholic church, as the article in this thread makes clear.

Up until Constatine and the subsequent growth of the holy Roman Empire, sabbath keeping was the norm everywhere except in Rome and Alexandria. The Roman church/state continued to grow and persecute those who didn't follow Romes teachings and sabbath oberservance began to wane under it's influence. But even as late as 400 A.D., sabbath keeping was the norm almost everywhere else.The historian Socrates Scholasticus, writing around 400 A.D. in The Ecclesiastical History, Book 5 confirms this:

For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebaïs, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath,

So to me, it seems evident that the church at Rome was influenced heavily by it's past practices of pagan worship on Sundays. Constatine instutituted a state religion, Christinianty, and in order to unite his empire between pagans and Christians, decreed Sunday as the day of "christian" worship. Rome's might grew and through persecution eventually converted most of the rest of Christianity to Sunday instead of Sabbath worship.

Personally, I agree with Paul that the whole thing is merely a way to sow confusion in the churches.

I agree that confusion has been sown, but primarily away from biblical principles. Much of Paul's letters are difficult to comprehend and prone to erroroneous interpetation, a fact that even Peter recognized:

2Pe 3:16 He talks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in his letters are hard to understand. Ignorant people and people who aren't sure of what they believe distort what Paul says in his letters the same way they distort the rest of the Scriptures. These people will be destroyed. (God's Word Translation)

On a personal note, I would like to commend you on your attitude and demeanor on this thread. Many people can not mount a defense of their doctrine without resorting to name calling and insults, none of which you have done.

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