The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[Invincibly Ignorant]

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Sounds to me like the things in these 2 verses happened pretty close together.

[SoothingDave]

I think conscience in unconverted people is simply a conditioned response. Look at a child. It would take other peoples things all day if you never taught it that taking things from others is wrong. Conscience in the converted is the conviction of the holy spirit.

"Train up a child in the ways of the Lord" the Old Testament says. Yes, conscience is largely a learned response, cause that is what we have. The Holy Spirit can strengthen you and give you understanding, but the basic of conscience is having a well-formed conscience.

I don't really see there being two different kinds of conscience.

Which of course is the entire argument for infant baptism not being effective in the "saving" of an infant. Since they have no ability to repent from sin, they are still in unrepentent sin.

What unrepentent sin? An infant has no personal sin, only original sin. Baptism is a first step, an initiation.

SD

[DouglasKC]

A human can't reproduce with an ape even though we're almost genetically identical. How much further apart would an angel and a human be?
I just said Abraham mistook angels for men. Sounds pretty close to me.

Yeah, but human form is a lot different than actually human. A picture of me looks like me, but it ain't gonna get my wife pregnant... :-)

And why would God create angels with the ability to reproduce with humans in the first place? He didn't give that ability to any other creature.
You'll have to ask Him.

I did. He said he didn't. Just kidding lol...

Scripturally angels and men are capable of sinning. Are animals capable of sinning?

That's a good question. I would say no because they were never made in the image of God and have nothing to attain to. They're doing what they were created to do, no matter how wrong we might find their actions. But I could be all wet on that one cause i haven't really thought it through.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

As a matter of fact there's only a semi-colon that separates the 2 verses. Its the same sentence.

[SoothingDave]

Re 48298

We are then, it will be seen, very far from attributing to the Mother of God a productive power of grace - a power which belongs to God alone.

Try not to let this section influence how you read the rest of the Marian stuff, OK?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Benedict XV, Litterae Apostolicae, Inter Sodalicia, March 22, 1918, AAS 10, 1918, 182 ... the fact that she was with Him crucified and dying, was in accord with the divine plan. For with her suffering and dying Son, Mary endured suffering and almost death. She gave up her Mother's rights over her Son to procure the salvation of mankind, and to appease the divine justice, she, as much as she could, immolated her Son, so that one can truly affirm that together with Christ she has redeemed the human race. But if for this reason, every kind of grace we receive from the treasury of the redemption is ministered as it were through the hands of the same Sorrowful Virgin, everyone can see that a holy death should be expected from her, since it is precisely by this gift that the work of the Redemption is effectively and permanently completed in each one ... further, there is a most constant belief among the faithful, proved by long experience, that as many as employ the same Virgin as Patron, will not at all perish forever.

Responses to the post by SoothingDave, RobbyS, IMRight:

:)

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

Are animals capable of sinning?

My cat doesn't think "thou shalt not kill" applies to anything smaller than himself.

SD

[DouglasKC]

Jude:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Angels leaving their habitation and like Sodom and Gomorrha giving themselves over to fornication. Sounds pretty clear to me. Key words here: "even as".

Yah, I read that in the article you posted. I had never seen those two verses linked together like that. I think the sense of it should be that the angels are waiting for judgement until the last day for their sins, even as Sodom and Gommoreah are waiting for judgement day to pay for their sins.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Yah, I read that in the article you posted. I had never seen those two verses linked together like that. I think the sense of it should be that the angels are waiting for judgement until the last day for their sins, even as Sodom and Gommoreah are waiting for judgement day to pay for their sins.

Ok Dave. Wink, wink. :-)

[DouglasKC]

As a matter of fact there's only a semi-colon that separates the 2 verses. Its the same sentence.

Remember though that there's no punctuation in the greek so it's entirely up to the translator to decide.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

My cat doesn't think "thou shalt not kill" applies to anything smaller than himself.L

I guess the question should be, has your cat reached the age of accountability and should he or she be held accountable. :-)

[DouglasKC]

okay, I need to take off...I'm out of here until at least Sunday...going over to see our daughter at school this afternoon and staying for services near Ann Arbor tomorrow...enjoy!

[IMRight]

No punctuation marks in Greek Steven. Remember?

[IMRight]

Am I the one on top?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

okay, I need to take off...I'm out of here until at least Sunday...going over to see our daughter at school this afternoon and staying for services near Ann Arbor tomorrow...enjoy!

Shabbat Shalom.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

No punctuation marks in Greek Steven. Remember?

Ok! My point still stands; whether semi-colon, coma, period, exclamation point, etc., etc., & etc.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Sorry forgot question mark. :-)

[IMRight]

Belay my last. Looks like I was beaten to it.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

It depends on what post you are replying to at the time. :)

BigMack

[IMRight]

Well, I certainly wasn't comfortable with the one in question. Maybe I can be all three?