Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
Juneteenth? ;o)
It was the day Constantine convened the Council in Nicea. ;o)
K-Mart sucks.
Obviously yes, since not every mother's prayer is answered.
Here is something to consider. For the sake of our new Catholic friend, I will use the Douay-Rheims translation:
And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren. (Luke 1:36)
Elizabeth is called Mary's cousin. Which means (as we know) that John the Baptist and Jesus were related. Now, this is precisely the sort of extended family situation where some tell us that we should expect the members of the extended family to be called "brothers" or "sisters".
Elizabeth is not called Mary's "sister". And John the Baptist is never called the "brother" of Jesus.
I asked you for some documentation concerning your rediculous assertion the first Bible's were written in Aramaic. Remember?
If you wish to continue with your inatities rather than respond with something resembling fact be my guest. Continue painting yourself with the brush of ignorance.
You mean the day an emperor acting as secular authority ordered the presence of all Bishops to a meeting where they were not allowed to leave until they resolved their bickerings.. I'm sure it sounds better to call it a council. (snickering).
1. Christianity in his time was a large amalgum of sects - not a single large sect surrounded by smaller sects.
I agree.
Constantine was trying to unify the sects into a common harmoneous whole.
Yep.
The problem is there was no unified church.
Right again.
In short, Catholicism came into being over 300 years after Christ.
19 June 325 C.E.
I think you've got it. I would add that all (small "o") "orthodox" Christians who accept the conciliar creedal formulations can trace their establishment as "orthodoxy" to Constantine. Before then, there was no "orthodoxy", but rather competing ideas/denominations/religions. It is only in retrospect that orthodoxy is assigned to earlier writers. How? By taking those whose writings mostly agree with Constantinian orthodoxy, and naming them "church fathers". And where their writings don't agree with "orthodoxy", well, they were just "fallible" and not speaking authoritatively for "the Church".
Additionally, the fabrication and/or creative editing of earlier writings, and the destruction of works whose theology did not square with "orthodoxy", and the repression of all "heretical" sects.
And yet Abraham's nephew is called his "brother."
It almost sounds like the Holy Spirit had to make do with the human author and the human language available.
SD
He established them as the only orthodox, legal church. Sainthood is the least they could do to return the favor. ;o)
Origen is a prime example of a "church father" peg who does not neatly fit into the "orthodox" hole.
I think you've got it. I would add that all (small "o") "orthodox" Christians who accept the conciliar creedal formulations can trace their establishment as "orthodoxy" to Constantine. Before then, there was no "orthodoxy", but rather competing ideas/denominations/religions.
I hope your holidays went well.
I am somewhat surprised at your attitude here. The truths you do speak are about to be lapped up by some who do not realize what is being said.
As you say, different ideas were in competition. But to say there was no "orthodoxy" is not quite right. Orthodoxy existed for sure, but was not accepted as such. And there was no mechanism for "punishing" heterodoxy.
The bottom line, which I think you would agree with, is that if one wants to say that there was no "orthodoxy" before 325, and use this to disprove the existence of a Catholic church, that one needs to similarly point to 325 as the year that Jesus became God.
Before this same council, there was competition in ideas about who Jesus was. There was no consensus among the individual churches.
So let us be careful what we draw from this event. Do deny that any "orthodoxy" existed is, for many here, to cut off their own support.
SD
Care to continue with your Bible lessons?
Becky
Little difference. You are still full of it.
Hi restornu! If Douglas didn't answer all of your questions, is there something I can help with?
Not Mary's egg? Puh-leeze. I'm still waiting for someone from the non-Catholic side to take that one on. There is no biblical evidence to support such a claim.
I could give you all kinds of A/P data on why this wouldn't work but with God anything is possible.
Huh? What is A/P? And which view "wouldn't work?"
I guess if he figured we needed to know how he did it, he would have told us. Why is this so important? Either way is fine with me It's the results that count, right?
What is "the result?" As I have striven to show over the past week, the orthodox Christian position is that Jesus is truly the Son of Mary. Truly her Son, not just one who used her womb.
Why does this matter?
Well, for one, if something like Jesus not being related to Mary at all is believed, it goes a long way towards explaing the standoffishness many Protestants have towards Mary. If she was just a womb-for-hire and a nanny, there is no need for her to be anything special.
But the real point is that we believe that God, in his effort to rehabilitate man took on humanity. That He took on the exact same humanity that all of us share as desecndents of Adam and Eve. He took this fallen line of humanity and united it to Himself so that we could all be likewise lifted up and united to God.
If God instead took a new, totally unrelated to Adam, strain of humanity on as His form when He became Incarnate, that is nice. But it does not provide an avenue for the present humans to become lifted up.
In short, as I have said many times, if our humanity is not assuemd by God, then our humanity is not redeemed by God.
We believe God takes our humanity, our failed experiment, and glorifies it. We don't believe he considers the race of Adam to be a dead end, requiring an entirely new batch of humanity.
SD
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