The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

We can not be Abraham’s, or inheritors of the promise, unless we do it the same way Abraham did it, by having faith, not the Law.

Consider this:

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24)

[malakhi]

I heard those lost tribes (or one of them anyway) ended up in Japan. Did you see the article here last week?

There have been many such claims. Some may even contain a kernel of truth! ;o)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Even Peter, John, and James used the name "Jesus" in their writings. Unless you think that they were edited later.

Have you considered the possibility the original gospel that formed the basis for the Synoptic Gospels was first communicated not in Greek but in the Hebrew language?

[SoothingDave]

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now you're just trying to stir things up. ;-)

SD

[malakhi]

There are plenty of examples of anti-Jewish rhetoric in the Christian scriptures.

Example?

Here are just a few:

Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him. (John 7:13)

His parents said this because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if any one should confess him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue. (John 9:22)

On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews (John 20:19)

When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him (Acts 9:23)

References to the leaders who turned Jesus in, or to those who persecuted the early Church are not to be taken as indictments of an entire people.

Up until fairly recently, that is exactly how it was taken.

[SoothingDave]

Have you considered the possibility the original gospel that formed the basis for the Synoptic Gospels was first communicated not in Greek but in the Hebrew language?

I have, but that destroys the Petros/Petra argument. LOL ;-)

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I have, but that destroys the Petros/Petra argument. LOL ;-)

And this should affect me how?

[SoothingDave]

Up until fairly recently, that is exactly how it was taken.

That's unfortunate. Many here think "the Muslims" are out to kill us, and in turn they fear "the Americans" who light up the night skies.

SD

[SoothingDave]

And this should affect me how?

Why, you should come back home to the church, that's how.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Why, you should come back home to the church, that's how.

I'm already there. But thanx for the invite nonetheless. :-)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Consider this:

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [James 2:20].

Faith without the fruit of faith is empty and futile as far as the world is concerned.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only [James 2:21–24].

Paul said that Abraham was justified by faith (see Rom. 4:3), and Genesis tells us that he was justified by faith (see Gen. 15:6; 22:1–14).

Was Abraham justified when he offered his son Isaac? The question is: Did he offer his son Isaac? And the answer is: No, he didn’t.

Then what was Abraham’s work of faith? How did works save him? His faith caused him to lift that knife to do a thing which he did not believe God would ever ask him to do. But since God had asked him, he was willing to do it. He believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead. Abraham never actually offered Isaac, because God provided a substitute, but he would have done it if God had not stopped him.

This is a illustration of the fact that you demonstrate your faith by your actions. The action of this man was that he believed God.

BigMack

[al_c]

I have, but that destroys the Petros/Petra argument. LOL ;-)

And this should affect me how?

C'mon ... that Petros/Petra argument is embedded in the annals of the Neverending Story. Don't tell me you never took part.

;o)

[RobbyS]

Let us then suppose that Greek-speaking Jews already had substituted Jesus for the Hebrew name. When I was teaching in the Valley a thousand years ago, one of my students was "George" Gonzalez. His earlier school record, said "Jorge." I asked him about it and he said he had just gone with the flow.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

C'mon ... that Petros/Petra argument is embedded in the annals of the Neverending Story. Don't tell me you never took part.

Didn't interest me in the least. I don't need Petros/Petra to recognize apostate. :-)

[SoothingDave]

The action of this man was that he believed God.

The action of the man was in doing what God told him to do. The faith was what led him to do so.

He believed that God would raise Isaac from the dead.

Where do you get this from?

SD

[RobbyS]

There is a range in attitudes. John is the least sympatheric toward the Jews. Interestingly he was also least sympathetic toward the leadership of the Twelve."

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Where do you get this from?

Although I'm not totally onboard with Mack downplaying the "works" aspect of the faith/works paradox, I'll tell you where he gets it from.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

oops. Ping to the above post.

[al_c]

Didn't interest me in the least. I don't need Petros/Petra to recognize apostate. :-)

Uh ... go back and read my post again. Pay attention to the italics. ;o)

[Quester]

Paul said that Abraham was justified by faith (see Rom. 4:3), and Genesis tells us that he was justified by faith (see Gen. 15:6; 22:1–14).

Yes ... and not only this, but both Paul and James quote the Genesis 15:6 passage, ... which occurs before the passage describing the near sacrifice of Isaac (Gen. 22).

The Genesis 15:6 passage follows ...

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

So, Abraham's faith is credited as he believes God's promise to provide him with a natural-born heir, ... before Isaac is even born.

James quotes Genesis 15:6, ... but uses the citation alongside the story of Isaac's near sacrifice.

Whatever the resolution of this ... it is clear that Abraham is commended for his justifying faith as he believes God's promise to provide him a natural-born heir, ... rather than for his willingness to sacrifice Isaac.

Abraham was commended and rewarded for his obedience to God in Gen. 22 as well (in the multiplying of his seed, etc.), ... but not in regard to his justification.

Abraham's justification was based on him believing God, apart from any works which he performed.