Are Works And Commandments Necessary For Salvation?

Unsealed ^ | 3/25/2020 | Gary

[Yosemitest]

"I disagree because hundreds of scriptures disagree with that interpretation. "

Well that's between you and Our Heavenly Father and His Son.

"Faith without works is dead."

James, chapter 2 is pretty easy to understand, and highly recommendable for Salvation.
But again, each person's Salvation is his or her own responsibility.

"Jesus said He made salvation so simple any fool could find it."

You got a chapter and verse reference for that ?

[Yosemitest]

I have other recommendations, but most people cannot tolerate them.

The Bible is not hard to understand, if you're willing to get some good cross-reference Bibles.
I started really studying the Bible, like I studied college courses in night school, while serving in the USAF.
A "significant emotional event" pressed me into searching for some deeper answers.
I bought 4 different study and reference Bibles in different versions, and laid them on the floor and started comparing all four versions to each other.
As long as all of them were in agreement, everything was fine.
But when one took off into a different direction, I dug into all of the references until they came full circle.

I'd make a decision tree, by taking a piece of paper, and drawing a line down the middle.
I'd write down all the references on one side of the debate on one side of the paper, and the other side of the debate would be on the other side of the paper for the other references.
Those decision trees came out very heavy on one side, and very few references on the other side.

You could do the same.

Now about 'the dead'; read WHEN I DIE, What Happens Next ?.

Have you ever been in surgery and put put to sleep ?
You might think of being dead, in the same way. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
They have no concept of the passing of time.
If you were thinking of doing anything or in the processor doing anything, say rotating your shoulder for example, when the anesthesia knocked you out, when you come to, you'll fine that you continue doing what you were doing when you fell under the anesthesia.
Think of the resurrection (whether 1st, 2nd, or 3rd) as waking up from the anesthesia.

The referenced booklet above will give you all the references, and DO LOOK THEM UP.
Then you can actually prove it to yourself from your own Bible.

Religion is personal, and individual.
It's between you and God, so don't let anyone, including me, confuse you.
Now about works; read What is the work of the church?
Also look at this list of 108 references from the New Testament.

That should get you started, and give you a peaceful sleep as well.
God Bless ..

[Yosemitest]

Have you every read "The thief on the cross, the comma & Christ" ?

I think not.

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Or should it be read as (?):

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."

[itsahoot]

Thus I said at the beginning and continue to say, your works are the EVIDENCE of your faith. They don’t save you. But we know a tree by it’s fruits.

I had a minister friend some years back who used to say; There are many scriptures that I do not totally understand, but I don't worry about them, I worry about the ones I understand all too well.

Another Baptist minister I had years back used to preach the scripture verse about the Soldier who went to Jesus about a sick servant, Jesus offered to come straight away but the soldier said He didn't need to come, he only needed to speak the command and it would be done. Jesus responded to this show of faith by declaring, go home because of your great faith, you and your household shall be saved. My pastor friend unable to grasp the importance of that statement always aded, "If they also believe," when clearly the scripture does not say that.

I have never bought into the idea that Salvation is only rented and can be revoked at any time. It is either a free Gift of God, or it isn't.

[itsahoot]

"Faith without works is dead."

James, chapter 2 is pretty easy to understand, and highly recommendable for Salvation. But again, each person's Salvation is his or her own responsibility.

Show me in scripture where Dead is translated as going to Hell. What does dead in this context really mean? Are the dead who proceeded us, in Hell, they are after all dead?

[GBA]

Thanks for sharing! I’m sure I’m not the only one who finds your post helpful.

I definitely am impressed by your dedicated approach to finding an understanding of something, especially something like the Bible!

It’s been a “stranger in a strange land” kind of adventure for me learning the language, Bibles, denominations, customs and hierarchy of modern Christianity in America.

Phrases like “children of God” have long been a confusion. I grew up hearing them without any understanding of what they meant nor a reliable way to figure it out.

In these times and with people being people, observation only gets you so far.

But ... I’m more curious about what comes next and I have read that we have the ability to become children of God and that our Heaven is the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

For me, this helps to explain many phrases and concepts, including Purgatory and the extraordinary Mary, Mother of God.

Thanks again and I hope you are having a Happy Sabbath!

[Yosemitest]

I'm doing the Sabbath probably wrong.
It's written in my heart and in my head, but my hand always get pulled away, mostly by my aging dad and his needs.

Remember that all men, including me, have their weaknesses and faults, and that includes our preachers.
So let you Bible studies be your own.
Always look up the references given.
That being said, for the future in the Bible, let God tell you from the words He's inspired His prophets to write, what is true, and not some preacher's interpretation.
Look where Jesus and His Army is going when He appears in the Second Coming.(Zechariah 14:1-9)
Read Malachi, chapter 3 and chapter 4 to see what Jesus and His Army will be doing when he returns.
This chapters parallel with Revelations. (I suggest The Book of Revelation Unveiled at last !
Also the end times are shown to Daniel in chapter10, chapter 11, and chapter 12.
Read them a few times and that will help.

[Yosemitest]

"Show me in scripture where Dead is translated as going to Hell"

Hell as in THE GRAVE.

Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH of life; and man became a living soul."
So the word "soul" did not exist in the original languages of the Bible, Greek and Hebrew.
Now look at the Hebrew word "nephesh" and its meaning. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance says,
“(5315) nephesh; a breathing creature, i.e. animal or (abstr.) vitality:
used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental);
appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead, desire, contented, fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart, (jeopardy of life; in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her, him, my, thy) self, them (your) selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, will, would have it.”

Job 14:12-14"So man lieth down, and riseth not: TILL the heavens be no more ...
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave ...
If a man die, shall he live again ? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."

1 Corinthians 15:50-52. "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. ...
but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Ezekiel 18:4 "... the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Genesis 3:19 "... till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

1 Timothy 6:14-16 "...until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ... who only hath immortality, ..."

So, you do NOT have an immortal soul right now.

Now Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 makes it a little cleared

"... because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: ...
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So when is the body and the spirit reunited ? At the resurrection.
Remember 1 Corinthians 15:50-52

"... but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Now don't confuse 'the dead' who are in the grave with the destruction of the body and spirit AFTER the judgement in Revelation 20:11-15.

"... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. "

I recommend a booklet that can do a much better job explaining this than I can.
Read Is There A Real Hell Fire ?

[itsahoot]

Ezekiel 18:4 "... the soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Body and soul are clearly two different things. Your arguments hold no water and your message sets no one free, rather you choose to enslave people with your definition of works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Define Gift
Define Free

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

For every scripture that explains what grace is you append a but. Why?

You would have us believe that saved by grace is sort of like buying a home with covenants attached, you get to keep it at the behest of a group of judges that determine whether you are keeping their rules.

[Yosemitest]

Do not confuse “soul” with “spirit” of a man.

[Seven_0]

I really don’t know, nor do I know what “the children of God” means to you.

1 Cor 15:46 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

These two verses are rules in interpreting scripture. Myriad examples can be listed but I will give you one that applies here. We are part of two distinct creations that exist together. The natural man, Adam.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And the spiritual man, Christ.

Gen 2:21-22 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man..

I'll let you ponder the differences in these two accounts. Just know that they are connected by others versed.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The first birth (natural) we become children of Adam and the second birth (spiritual or invisible) we become children of God. So my question from Rev 20:12 do you think “the dead” refers to the children of God? Notice what happens to those people who are judged according to their works?

[GBA]

If you are saying “the children of God” are those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then I understand why you have that definition.

As to the rest? There are 2 classes of “the dead” that I am aware of in that context: “the dead” and “the dead in Christ”.

I assume those who are called “the children of God” are those who are “dead in Christ” and they do not experience the second death per the many promises of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

Beyond that, I’m still exploring what the meaning of things means and there are many differing opinions and theories to contemplate. For example ...

If we are “dead in Christ” and our Heaven is the Sacred Heart of Jesus, then I wonder about our “sleep” after the body dies.

And, if that is conceptually true, then, for me, a conceptual Purgatory and the reasons for it also fits within that model for me, based on what is described by Catholics.

And, if the Immaculate Heart of Mary is intertwined with the Sacred Heart of Jesus, then all that is attributed to Her now and in times past makes sense to me and She and the supernatural attributed to Her is much easier for me to understand and accept and believe.

The many stories of near death experiences (NDEs) are also much easier for me to understand and account for.

[Yosemitest]

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

"Define Gift"

A great acquaintance once made it simple in something he wrote.

A plain paraphrasing of the enigmatic verse in Ephesians 2:8 would be,
“By God’s loving, merciful graciousness and forgiveness, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ,
and even this faith is a gift from God,
it is not something we can produce ourselves, lest we should boast and brag that we had saved ourselves !
Nevertheless, we are created in Christ, as Christians, for the purpose of performing good works,
which God has before ordained that we should live in them.”

Let's look at the Bible Dictionary's definition of "GIFT" :

"(1.) An gratuity (Prov. 19:6) to secure favour (18:16; 21:14), a "thank-offering (Num. 18:11), or a dowry (Gen. 34:12)."
"(2.) An oblation or proppitatory gift (2Sa 8:2, 6; 1Ch 18:2, 6; 2Ch 26:8; Ps. 45:12; 72:10).
"(3.) A bribe to a judge to obtain a favourable verdict (Ex. 23:8; Deut. 16:19).
"(4.) Simply a thing given (Matt. 7:11; Luke 11:13; Eph. 4:8);
"sacrifical (Matt. 5:23, 24; 8:4);
eleemosynary (Luke 21:1);
a" gratuity (John 4:10; Acts 8:20).
In Acts 2:38 the generic word "dorea is rendered "gift."
It differs from the charisma (1 Cor." 12:4) as denoting not miraculous powers but the working of a new "spirit in men, and that spirit from God."
"The giving of presents entered largely into the affairs of common life in the East.
The nature of the presents was as "various as were the occasions:
food (1 Sam. 9:7; 16:20), sheep" "and cattle (Gen. 32:13-15),
gold (2 Sam. 18:11), jewels (Gen." "24:53), furniture, and vessels for eating and drinking (2 Sam." "17:28);
delicacies, as spices, honey, etc. (1 Kings 10:25; 2" Kings 5: 22).
The mode of presentation was with as much parade as possible:
the presents were conveyed by the hands of servants "(Judg. 3:18),
or still better, on the backs of beasts of burden" (2 Kings 8:9).
The refusal of a present was regarded as a high indignity; and this constituted the aggravated insult noticed in "Matt. 22:11, the marriage robe having been offered and refused."


"(Gr. charismata), gifts supernaturally bestowed on the early" "Christians,
each having his own proper gift or gifts for the" edification of the body of Christ.
These were the result of the "extraordinary operation of the Spirit, as on the day of" "Pentecost.
They were the gifts of speaking with tongues, casting" "out devils, healing, etc. (Mark 16:17, 18),
usually communicated" by the medium of the laying on of the hands of the apostles (Acts 8:17; 19:6; 1 Tim. 4:14).
These charismata were enjoyed only for a time.
They could not continue always in the Church.
They were suited to its infancy and to the necessities of those times.

For your second request:

"Define Free"

"Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."

I guess the best way to answer your request Biblically would be to refer you to the Matthew Henry Commentary's comments on John 8:32.

[2.] The truth shall make you free; that is,
First,
The truth which Christ teaches tends to make men free, Isa. 61:1.
Justification makes us free from the guilt of sin,
by which we were bound over to the judgment of God,
and bound under amazing fears;
sanctification makes us free from the bondage of corruption,
by which we were restrained from that service which is perfect freedom,
and constrained to that which is perfect slavery.
Gospel truth frees us from the yoke of the ceremonial law, and the more grievous burdens of the traditions of the elders.
It makes us free from our spiritual enemies,
free in the service of God,
free to the privileges of sons,
and free of the Jerusalem which is from above, which is free.
Secondly,
The knowing, entertaining, and believing, of this truth does actually make us free,
free from prejudices, mistakes, and false notions, than which nothing more enslaves and entangles the soul,
free from the dominion of lust and passion;
and restores the soul to the government of itself,
by reducing it into obedience to its Creator.
The mind,
by admitting the truth of Christ in the light and power,
is vastly enlarged, and has scope and compass given it,
is greatly elevated and raised above things of sense,
and never acts with so true a liberty as when it acts under a divine command, 2 Cor. 3:17.
The enemies of Christianity pretend to free thinking,
whereas really those are the freest reasonings that are guided by faith,
and those are men of free thought whose thoughts are captivated and brought into obedience to Christ.

Now the I have answered you questions, it's your turn to answer my questions.

Many people like to quote Ephesians 2:8-9, but they want to ignore verse 10.

• 1. Why do you thing God inspired Paul to write in Ephesians 2:10( ? ) :
  "For we are his workmanship,
  created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
  which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
  
  
• 2. What and why do you think God inspired Paul to write in Romans 2:12-16 :
  "For as many as have sinned without law
  shall also perish without law:
  and as many as have sinned in the law
  shall be judged by the law;
  (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,
  these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves
  which shew
  the work of the law written in their hearts,
  their conscience also bearing witness,
  and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
  
  
• 3. What is Jesus talking about in Luke 19:12-27 (rebellion against laws) and in Matthew 25:14-30 (growing in grace and knowledge) if you don't believe we have to obey the law by our works ?
  
  
• 4. What do you say to god's inspired words written by James 2:14-26,or where is faith without works ?
  
  5. What do you say about Matthew 7:24-27, or (for a matter of contest) all of Matthew chapter 7 ?

That should get you started, unless you mind is closed to the Bible.
Always try to keep things in context, even if we are human and fallible.

[Yosemitest]

OUESTIONS: What does Plato and Socrates have to do with the authority of the Bible ?

Did the Early Church Teach Purgatory ?

Here's some information from http://www.adventistonline.com/ on "Purgatory" .

We have this from the Roman Catholic Church....

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation;
but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire.
He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come.
From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture:
"Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607
From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice,
so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608
The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them.
If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation ?
Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609


(See footnote link at this source)

This is one of the false doctrines that led Martin Luther to take a stand against the Papacy.
Purgatory as a doctrine teaches that a Christian's soul must burn in purgatory after death until all of their sins have been purged.
To speed up the purging process, money could be paid to a priest so he could pray and have special masses for an earlier release, and much money was made with this doctrine.
Purgatory is given as a way that no matter how sinful or unbelieving, when you die, you go to Purgatory and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven,
so no acceptance of Christ is needed, you can buy your way in.
But is it in the Bible,
if you look it doesn't show,
so where did it come from.
It comes as no surprise to see it is a corrupt pagan doctrine, which was allowed into the church.

This pagan idea began creeping into the church around the end of the sixth century, and it has no scriptural support.
In fact, Jesus warned us about this pagan practice in Matthew 23:14 when He spoke of those who devoured widows houses and made long prayers for a pretence.
Psalm 49:6-7 tells us that a person couldn't redeem a loved one, even if such a place did exist:
"They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:"
Peter addresses this issue in Acts 8:20 when he says,
"Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."
God's word is clearly against the doctrine of purgatory.

The Greeks, as in some measure the Egyptians before them, created myths of the afterlife which spread throughout the Hellenistic world,
and even into words which were used when the Hebrew text was translated into the Greek.
Scripture clearly rejects the Greek notion of the immortality of the soul disembodied from the here and now as spirit beings,
and early Christians affirmed the resurrection of the body just as Lazuras was resurrected by Christ.
So there is no place for a underworld depicted in Greek myths or place of cleansing by fire such as purgatory
where spirit beings are left till they are ready to be reunited with God,
it comes from other origins which we shall see.

Purgatory as a transitional condition has from many sources,
a origin from the pagan belief of caring for the dead and praying for them,
and to the belief that prayer for the dead contributed to their afterlife purification.
Pagan tradition created this place of purgatory which leaves hope after death for the wicked,
who, at the time of their death, are unrepentant and cling to their love of sin.

In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of purgatory was taught as in modern times
and its priests created grand funerals and masses for the dead,
along with celebration of prayer and other services for the soul of the dead.
The priest who officiated at the burial service was selected from the grade of Pontiffs who wore the leopard skin;
but various other rites were performed by one of the minor priests to the mummies,
previous to their being lowered into the pit of the tomb after that ceremony.
They practiced elaborate ceremonies to prepare the pharaohs for their next life,
constructing massive pyramids and other elaborate tombs filled with luxuries the deceased were supposed to need in the hereafter.
The famous Book of the Dead, a collection of ancient Egyptian funerary and ritual texts, describes in great detail how to meet the challenges of the afterlife.
The pagan Egyptian belief was
when the body died, parts of its soul known as ka (body double) and the ba (personality) would go to the Kingdom of the Dead.
While the soul dwelt in the Fields of Aaru, Osiris demanded work as restitution for the protection he provided.
Statues were placed in the tombs to serve as substitutes for the deceased.
The Egyptian belief in the immortality of the soul existed centuries before Judaism, Hellenism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam.
According to Herodotus, eventually the Greeks adopted from the Egyptians the belief in the immortality of the soul.
He wrote:
"The Egyptians also were the first who asserted the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal . . .
This opinion, some among the Greeks have at different periods of time adopted as their own."
The Greek philosopher Socrates (470-399 B. C.) traveled to Egypt to consult the Egyptians on their teachings on the immortality of the soul.
Upon his return to Greece, he imparted this teaching to his most famous pupil, Plato.......

In Greece the doctrine of a purgatory was spread through the Greek mystery religions and even was spoken by one of its major philosophers.
Plato, speaking of the future judgment of the dead, holds out the hope of final deliverance for all,
but maintains that, of "those who are judged," some must first "proceed to a subterranean place of judgment,
where they shall sustain the punishment they have deserved."
The ancient Greeks sacrificed on the thirteenth day (after death) to Mercury as the conductor of the dead,
they also had sacrifice which, according to Plato,
"was offered for the living and the dead,
and was supposed to free them from all the evils to which the wicked are liable when they have left this world."

In ancient Rome, the pagan priests also picked up and spread purgatory to the pagans,
but as a belief in the early church it was not immediately picked up.
From earliest times Greek religious beliefs were a strong influence in Italy,
and the Graeco-Roman world was essentially one in its religious and philosophic views of the afterlife.
There was no mention of the doctrine during the first two centuries of the church,
it has no basis in scripture, the apostles did not teach it, nor did Christ.

In all pagan religions you will find a similar description of a place after death where everyone can be absolved of their sin,
not in any way connected to what the Bible says.
In the pagan purgatory, fire, water, wind, were represented as combining to purge away the stain of sin,
and has its roots in the Babylonian belief of Tammuz or Zoroaster, the great God of the ancient fire-worshippers.
The doctrine of purgatory is purely pagan, and in no way from scripture
as those who die in Christ no purgatory is or can be needed
as it teaches that Christs blood cleanseth true believers from all sin,
not purgatory.
Scripture does not tell us
of at death being put through altered spiritual states of immortality till we are cleansed by purgatory fires
and then go to eternal life or heaven,
but clearly teaches that immortality is not an innate human possession, but a conditional gift of eternal life
given to believers at the resurrection.

Now some people point to Jesus' enunciation of the unpardonable sin as proof for Purgatory.
Let us quickly review this Scripture.
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him:
but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him,
neither in this world, neither in the world to come."[Matthew 12:32]
This reference to two worlds is held to be proof of Purgatory in the Bible, but that has nothing about purgatory. The expression "either in this world or in the world to come" does not imply that some sins are forgiven after death;
however, it is a strong way of stating the truth
that the unrepentant sinner will never be forgiven,
as we see from the parallel passages of this Scripture (Luke 12:10, especially Mark 3:29)..

The doctrine of Purgatory is not only without Biblical proof, but it is against the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture.
The Bible nowhere speaks of a temporary place of punishment after death for believers;
however, it does clearly state that when the believer dies,
he rests in the grave and becomes dust,
a place that no living loved one can effect in any way.
"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth:
Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours ..."
[Revelation 14:13]

Others point to Matthew 5:25-26 as the basis for Purgatory.
Let us review that Scripture:
"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him;
lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge,
and the judge deliver thee to the officer,
and thou be cast into prison.
Verily I say unto thee,
Thou shalt by no means come out thence, until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."Matthew 5:25-26.
This "prison" thus implied in this Scripture is supposed to be Purgatory.
The implication in this Scripture is also that, eventually, the prisoner will pay his final bill and be set free.
This implication is held to be consistent with the teaching of Purgatory,
that it is not eternal,
and eventually, everyone will get out of it, and go on to Heaven, perfectly purified.
But it was a literal prison the verse refers to
not purgatory by any stretch of the imagination,
or whatever the pagan mystery religions tried to come up with.

In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture
or worse paying to cleanse a dead person of sin as a way to heaven.
Scripture leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ.
The apostle John wrote with irrefutable clarity,
"The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" and "all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:7, 9).
John did not say "some" sins or "most" sins,
but all sin.
The Roman church was confronted with this in the 16th century when the Reformers protested its practice of buying and selling of God's grace through indulgences.
Backed into a corner, the Council of Trent tried to tie it to the apocryphal books
not part of the canon of Scripture.
These were a collection of uninspired books by writers
influenced by the Greek belief in
the immortality of the soul, prayer for the dead, and denial of the resurrection,
who put these teachings what in what was known as the Apocrypha.
The council ignored the fact that
the Jewish scribes never recognized the apocryphal books as inspired or part of the Hebrew Scriptures
and it was rejected outright in 90 A.D. at the Council of Jamnia (Jabneh).
Clearly they saw the danger
as it was obviously pagan myths and beliefs mixed into these apocryphal books
and they clearly saw that God did not inspire the writers of the Apocrypha.
This is why the Apocrypha was never included in the original canon of 66 books.

[itsahoot]

Give up Yose, Works does not and cannot save you. Works are a reasonable expectation of one who appreciates the gift God has bequeathed to them, but has nothing to do with keeping the free gift. You would enslave every Christian to your idea of what a Christian should be. Give you kid a gift of a car and ask them to show their appreciation by not staying out late and prepare yourself for disappointment. Can you remove your sonship from him? Would you?

[Yosemitest]

You should know the history of what you're promoting.
I have found and posted the history and origin of that pagan belief in Purgatory.

[Yosemitest]

I also noticed that you refuse to answer questions that expose your pagan beliefs.
Answer those questions as I have answered yours.

[GBA]

Thanks for taking the time and putting in so much effort into your post!

It’s interesting what people and what the Church have to say about “Purgatory”, though I’m more inclined to figure out what the Church says and why.

The supernatural and the world of God are difficult to understand, just Scripture is difficult to understand, for a rational mind.

The doctrine of Purgatory is not only without Biblical proof, but it is against the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture. The Bible nowhere speaks of a temporary place of punishment after death for believers;

I don’t think Purgatory is a place of punishment, so it makes sense that the Bible wouldn’t refer to it. To me, Purgatory is one of His Mysteries. The Bible teaches us how to avoid it.

In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture or worse paying to cleanse a dead person of sin as a way to heaven.

I don’t think of “Purgatory” in either of these ways, so I’m not surprised that Scripture doesn’t either.

From what I’ve read, “fire” is a description of what a soul experiences while doing time in “Purgatory”, wherever that “fire” may be and whatever or where ever “Purgatory” might be.

The Bible doesn’t go into much detail about the actual processes Jesus uses to purify a soul, just that He does. But what happens once the body dies? Does that process of soul cleaning, whatever it is, change also? In what way?

That people make money or gain “power” selling God isn’t a new thing and “Purgatory” just gives those of that spirit more God for them to sell or to use to gain power.

They existed before Jesus walked as a man, while Jesus walked as a man and they exist today, too, and not just on Sunday morning God TV.

Perhaps they will find out what Purgatory is and isn’t.

[itsahoot]

I also noticed that you refuse to answer questions that expose your pagan beliefs. Answer those questions as I have answered yours.

You haven't answered anything, you quote scriptures that rightly condemn certain behaviors but they assign no one to Hell as you contend.

You would continue to withhold salvation until the people bend to your commands through fear. I contend that good behaviors that are coerced are not good behaviors at all so examine your own behaviors and ask that question of your own convictions.

[itsahoot]

the history and origin of that pagan belief in Purgatory.

Just another way to hold the people in chains and milk some more money from a family after their loved ones die. Indulgences are another form of works that your position encourages.