This topic was posted , thanks ebb tide.
Posted on 12/11/2018 5:14:49 PM PST by ebb tide
Not a lie, God got 4 people out before he destroyed it. God said nothing about what he’d do if his own angels were threatened with sexual assault. God did not destroy the righteous along with the wicked.
Abraham was acting as a tenderhearted intercessor and I believe God honored that, giving Abraham respect and dignity over his concerns. Abraham already knew Sodom to be wicked which is why he refused to take any direct rewards for the defeat of Sodom’s enemies when Abe rescued lot.(What he did take was given as a gift to Melchizidek).
We see the same principle when God, angry with Israel for their disobedience, determined to destroy them and offering to make of Moses a great nation. Moses interceded and while agreeing that Israel was a stiffnecked people nevertheless persuaded God to withhold destroying them completely.
We see the same principle again when the entire Earth was noted to be filled with sin, God made in Flesh, came to earth to die for us and intercedes for us before God the Father.
We see the same principle of hope and possible intercession at the final judgment when all the books are opened so that one may, at last possible moment just might find oneself written in the Lamb’s Book of Life...otherwise why have a final judgment at all, if God already knows all? Who will be that last possible intercessor that saves us from hell fire? God is judge and many will see hell but I think there will be surprises as well. The Bible says that the Father is not willing that men should perish but rather have everlasting life....I think that was Christ’s first imperative as it was for Moses for his nation and as it was for Abraham for the sake of any righteous in Sodom and Gomorrah!
It is never defiant to ask God for mercy especially for those of the wicked who might yet be saved. God may know all but he was also tender and sparing of Abraham’s heart and knew of his concerns for his nephew Lot. He said that he would spare the city for the sake of 10 but silence from God to Abraham about the real situation in Sodom was not a lie for God already had a plan to get Lot and his family out of Sodom and indeed the city of Zoar was spared as Lot had gotten permission to stay there as God destroyed Sodom.(hence Zoar being spared by Lot’s righteousness) The destruction of Sodom was a tacit message to Abraham that God had not found 10 righteous people, though I’m sure Abraham later learned that Lot had been spared.
Funny, this was the reading today at Mass.
Abraham knew that Lo, Lot’s Wife, two daughters, and two guys after the daughters were in Sodom—
going from 10 to five, the next step, would indicate that not even all the core group could be counted on—and one would think that the core group and a few others could be found.
But as the story unfolds, six becomes four, becomes three, becomes one at best.
Abreham didn’t realize just how shot people were.
Christ, and Christ alone, is righteous of himself, but through, and only through, his power others can be joined to him.
Zoar was spared because of Lot though Lot left there quickly for fear God would go ahead and destroy that one; God never did though I’ll bet the inhabitants sure got the message to shape up or die!
In Revelation God spoke and seven thunders answered, John was about to write what the 7 thunders answered but John was told not to write down what the 7 thunders answered...was God a liar there?
I don’t think the “angel of the Lord” lied to Sarah though Sarah did try to lie that she laughed when the angel told her that she was going to have a son. Don’t forget therewas more going on in that account than just Soddom. Abraham was just reminded that he and Sarah were going to have a child, which they did. Sarah, hearing that pronouncement laughed in her tent knowing herself to be past menopause.Why don’t I post the entire Chapter 18 so that we can understand the whole context of what occurred. You might as well have said that Jesus incarnate could have just stayed in Heaven and died there instead of coming personally to the Earth to live as a man then die.
No ...the “Angel of the Lord”(who many think was Christ himself since he said..”Before Abraham was, I AM) wanted to do a personal investigation of the events on the ground. His promise to Abraham was not a lie but a revelation of his own saving nature....Could he spare the cities in someway(?), he wanted to find out...
Genesis 18:”18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,[a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs[b] of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
9 “Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him.
“There, in the tent,” he said.
10 Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”
Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?”
13 Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”
15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, “I did not laugh.”
But he said, “Yes, you did laugh.”
Abraham Pleads for Sodom
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five people?”
“If I find forty-five there,” he said, “I will not destroy it.”
29 Once again he spoke to him, “What if only forty are found there?”
He said, “For the sake of forty, I will not do it.”
30 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?”
He answered, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 Abraham said, “Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?”
He said, “For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it.”
32 Then he said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?”
He answered, “For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it.”
33 When the Lord had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.”
Finally did Jesus not marvel at the faith of the Sidonian Greek woman(a gentile), when in requesting healing for a family member Christ had responded...”it is not meat that food meant for the master’s children should be given to dogs..?” Her response “ The dogs are fed from the scraps from the master’s table.” Was Jesus a fraud and a liar that he could be caught by surprise at such a powerful statement of faith? No he saved that woman and granted her request. God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah had he found faith in 10 people in the city...just like he saved the Sidonian Greek woman. Indeed Christ himself said of the people who rejected his message...(upon sending out the disciples to preach the good news” It will be more tolerable for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than it will be for those who reject my word”
Please be cautious about calling God a liar, about his resembling the Father of Lies...step back from the edge a bit. The Commandments say not to bear “false witness” which is lying , but in a way that distorts reality that brings destruction to character of self and others, by gossip and slander. Godly tenderness and tact is another issue and as Job found out, unless you know of a higher God than God by which you, a human can judge God by...do you wish to take that risk?
To address the bit about Sarah, no, God definitely didn’t lie during that time, and yes, Sarah did lie to God. He said she would conceive, and she did, conceived Issac. And on that note, it was kind of her fault Issac had a half-brother since she due to little to no faith in what God said told Moses to sleep with Hagar to produce a son, and said half-brother, Ishmael, was the result, and he and his descendants would become “asses of men”.
However, the definition of lying from what I’ve learned is that you need to give false information to someone knowing full well beforehand that said information is false. Last I checked, regardless of God’s intentions of whether he wished to spare Abraham or otherwise truly loved manipulating him, he still willfully misled him by letting him think there was even a chance that Sodom and Gomorrah was redeemable, and thus still ultimately broke one of the ten commandments he drafted since before the first day of creation. And besides, truth is actually pretty destructive, even moreso than lying. Think of all the times stuff gets leaked to people, with it actually being confirmed to be true, and people getting so incensed that they either demand a corrupt person’s removal from office or otherwise cause a destructive riot. That exposure of truth leads to destruction.
And as far as your warning, I know full well God’s smarter than me or anyone else (he’s omniscient, and aside from that, it’s incredulous to think someone who created everything, including us, would be dumber than us even if he weren’t omniscient). In fact, knowing he’s omniscient and far beyond me in terms of intellect, to the extent that I’m at most a disposal tool before God ultimately, is PRECISELY the reason I’m not fond of God just hiding the truth from Abraham, regardless of his motives, since I don’t like the idea that God just violates his own commandments. If he had been dumber than a human and not even aware whether there were any innocents, I could at least understand why he’d bother investigating, even if not be fond of that either. As far as Jesus, there were a few readings that implied that even Jesus didn’t know as much as God the Father, like when he himself said when leaving that not even he knew when he’ll return, as that is strictly for God the Father to know. Not to mention, the entire point behind Jesus becoming human was pretty much to redeem us and bring us back into relationship with God.
And just as an FYI, I’ll accept that God has his reasons for lying, but that doesn’t mean I can’t criticize God for doing that and completely betraying his ten commandments, any more than Snake wasn’t allowed to criticize what was technically his commanding officer in Metal Gear Solid for lying through his teeth to him (you did watch those links for Metal Gear Solid and Metal Gear Solid 2, right?).
This topic was posted , thanks ebb tide.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
