Posted on 08/02/2017 2:07:44 PM PDT by detective
Which is exactly what Roman Catholics do with mary.
Fantasywriter, what do you think?
Ebb tide, this is of possible interest.
Praying to the Saints
If it is literal then the only saints who could hear our prayer would be those who were resurrected with Jesus and they would not be in heaven because it says those in the first resurrection would live and reign with Christ in his spiritual kingdom a thousand years.
It says the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Meaning they actually lived again here on earth, and the ones who were not in the first resurrection will live again here on earth which may be happening now.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything
I really think part of the problem here is that we live in a society almost totally lacking in an “honor tradition” -— except, as I noted, in the military
Thanks for the link. It’s going to be a hard one for the cherry-pickers to rebut.
Mrs. D, those are some very interesting and well researched examples. Taken in a vacuum, they might well advance your argument.
We can’t take any part of the Bible in a vacuum, however. Scripture must be taken as a whole.
In the issue at hand, we have input from the Lord Himself. Take note, please, that it was the Holy Spirit who saw to it that the following vignette was included in His inspired word. There must be a very good reason for it!
Here is the passage:
Luke 11:
27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.”
28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
This is the passage where the rubber meets the road. This is the very first [and only] Scripturally recorded instance of veneration being done to Mary. It’s the only one.
Please note Jesus’ response. There is no equivocation. He does not say, ‘Yes, it is good to bless my mither, but it is even more blessed to hear and obey my words.’
He doesn’t say that, or anything approaching that.
Rather, Jesus nips this attempt to venerate Mary right in the bud. He grants it no quarter—none. When He says, “On the contrary,” He is cutting it off at the knees.
You can read this passage a hundred times. You will never come away from it convinced that Jesus approved of the veneration of Mary. The account is simple and clear. Given a golden opportunity to okay the veneration of His mother, Jesus vetoed it in no uncertain terms.
This raises questions. Is Jesus really our example? Should we really imitate Him?
If yes, then Mary veneration is off limits. Jesus illustrated this via a powerful example.
Whether we follow that example or defy it is our choice.
Did Jesus not kneel to wash the feet of His apostles at the Last Supper?
Or has that also been excised from your bible?
mither = mother
Apologies for the typo.
Psalm69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother’s sons.
for the waters have come up to my neck.
2 I sink in the miry depths,
where there is no foothold.
I have come into the deep waters;
the floods engulf me.
3 I am worn out calling for help;
my throat is parched.
My eyes fail,
looking for my God.
4 Those who hate me without reason
outnumber the hairs of my head;
many are my enemies without cause,
those who seek to destroy me.
I am forced to restore
what I did not steal.
5 You, God, know my folly;
my guilt is not hidden from you.
6 Lord, the Lord Almighty,
may those who hope in you
not be disgraced because of me;
God of Israel,
may those who seek you
not be put to shame because of me.
7 For I endure scorn for your sake,
and shame covers my face.
8 I am a foreigner to my own family,
a stranger to my own mother’s children;
With out that assumption there is no proof what so ever that Mary had any more than one child.
Koine Greek is very precise. It has a word for male cousin, a word for female cousin, a word for brother and a word for sister. The word for ‘brother,’ not the word for, ‘cousin,’ is used in such passages as, Matthew 12:47:
Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
Strong's Concordance
anepsios: a cousin
Original Word: ἀνεψιός, οῦ, ὁ Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: anepsios Phonetic Spelling: (an-eps'-ee-os) Short Definition: a cousin Definition: a cousin, nephew.
[Note:I'll post again with a working link.] http://biblehub.com/greek/431.htm
New Testament use of the word for, ‘cousin,’:
Colossians 4:10
Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and also Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);
Here we have an instructive example of how paradoxes in the Bible might or might not be taken as flatly contradictory. What to do?
BTW, When I looked up that quote at Biblehub, the big majority did not use the phrase "On the contrary," but the word "rather" which does not necessarily imply contradiction ("That's pretty low-cal" - "Yea rather, it's delicious!" --- doesn't mean it's not also low-cal!)
http://biblehub.com/luke/11-28.htm I think these come closer to the mark:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He said to her, “Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it.”Young's Literal Translation
And he said, 'Yea, rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping it!'
King James BibleTwo things strike me about this: first, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, Mary and Elizabeth both call Mary Blessed, and Mary says all future generations will do so, too. Second: but Mary and Elizabeth don't make reference to Mary's womb and breasts but rather (not 'on the contrary,' but 'rather') to her lowliness and her faith.
Luke 1:45
(Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to Mary) "Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord's word to her will be fulfilled."Luke 1:48
[Mary said] "He hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."
My owns thought is that Jesus is looking past the kind of biological reductionism that characterizes a woman as childbearing-childcaring parts (womb and breasts) and pointing rather to inward spiritual qualities (lowliness and faith).
Jesus is, I think, saying: You admire mother for her physical lady parts? Much more you should admire her for her spiritual qualities: which you should all aspire to have, because "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice." (Luke 8:21)
Your thoughts? First, look at what seems paradoxical:
There is no encouragement for the veneration of Mary from the Lord Himself. Just the opposite, in fact.
[Note: if I include the Strong's link here, it won't work. I'll include it in the very next post.]
Strong's Concordance
menoun and menounge: rather, on the contrary
Original Word: μενοῦνγε Part of Speech: Particle, Disjunctive Particle Transliteration: menoun and menounge Phonetic Spelling: (men-oon'-geh) Short Definition: nay rather Definition: nay rather; indeed, truly, really.
Exodus 20:4-6
Carved images. The prohibition is against bowing down before images that people have made. NOT real, live, flesh and blood, living, breathing, physically alive in your presence human beings as a show of respect, NOT worship.
Your post is such a PERFECT example of the legalistic hairsplitting that ensues when people try to figure out some way of violating one of the commandments.
It makes a simple command so burdensome by adding exceptions, and clauses, and rules and regulations, all of which lead into further bondage.
I wonder who the saints were in the churches that Paul wrote his epistles to.
Had the Catholic church, which didn’t exist at the time, somehow manage to canonize them and Paul was writing his letters to some kind of elite special group of really spiritual persons instead of all believers everywhere?
First, they don’t called her “Blessed”. In Luke 1:48 blessed is an adjective. The Roman Catholic lack of understanding of basic grammar is appalling at times.
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