Conditionalism Vs Eternal Torment Vs Universal Reconciliation

Unsealed.org ^ | 11/29/16 | Gary

[xone]

And again, the devil and his angels are not humans.

But: Matt 24:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (The Lord is speaking here) Also, you are using Revelation, which is a book of symbols.

Same John that wrote the Gospel by the same name, 3 epistles. Hell in Revelation is the same hell referenced elsewhere specifically by Christ in the above passage. It isn't one of your symbols.

[angryoldfatman]

I will not engage in discussion of philosophies as they are all men’s wisdom.

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Then do not discuss Hades, the invention of men and their supposed wisdom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_underworld

http://facultyblog.eternitybiblecollege.com/2012/07/how-plato-messed-up-the-church/#.WD9t_vkrI1I

[xone]

I’m talking about churches that preach the “turn or burn” message, which is not scriptural.

Uh yeah it is, it is the scriptural message of the Law. Presented alone in church is unscriptural. The Law convicts the sinner but presents no antidote, no sentence or message but death.

[Mr. Douglas]

I was going to go into a long diatribe. Instead, let me quote from here: http://rethinkinghell.com/explore/

The phrase eternal fire evokes in the mind of the traditionalist a picture of the unsaved burning and suffering in flames for all eternity. And it is assumed that this eternal fire, prepared for the demons, is the same lake of tormenting fire found in the symbolic imagery of Rev. 20. But the text indicates that it is the fire which is eternal, not those thrown into it. And the use of the phrase elsewhere indicates that eternal fire utterly destroys and reduces to lifeless remains.

Jesus uses the phrase elsewhere, in Matthew 18:8, and his admonition there, also recorded in Matt 5:30 and Mark 9:43, likens final punishment to Gehenna, a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew “valley of [the sons of] Hinnom,” which was once a place where idol worshippers burned up children as sacrifices to their gods. But Jeremiah 7:32-33 says that Gehenna would become “the Valley of Slaughter . . . And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away.” Isaiah 30 speaks of God’s fiery vengeance upon Gehenna, likening it to a funeral pyre, which is a pile of wood for burning up corpses.

Another place the phrase eternal fire is used is in Jude 7, where Jude writes that Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities “serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.” Jude explicitly states that the cities suffered the punishment of eternal fire, as many theologians admit. No wonder the parallel in 2 Peter 2:6 refers to their having been reduced to ashes.

The punishment of eternal fire is therefore not suffering for eternity as everlasting fuel for its flames. Rather, it is the punishment of being utterly destroyed, completely burned up, reduced to nothing but lifeless corpses and ashes by a fire that is eternal insofar as it cannot be quenched—no mere earthly fire but an eternal fire from God.

[Mr. Douglas]

BTW, the link I referenced will still require you to select the “scriptures” tab and then the Traditionalism tab under it. Then select the Matthew 25:41 horizontal bar.

You will notice there is a horizontal bar for a LOT of the scriptures used by Traditionalists to support ECT. Each one, when you click on it, contains the scripture in question along with comments on the meaning of the text.

[xone]

So, being burned up pays for your sins. Non-scriptural. More of a redefinition of God. Scriptures says only by faith in Christ and by His blood can sins be remitted. Now there is another way. It is nicer than Biblical truth, so it attracts those who can’t fathom a just God who keeps His promises. Substituting one who wouldn’t be so mean. Just what an itchy ear needs.

[xone]

I’ve read these references, you and I have been around on this. My responses have been for those who seek a biblical answer and avoid the error of this ‘new’ idea.

[Mr. Douglas]

My responses have been for those who seek a biblical answer and avoid the error of this ‘new’ idea.

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I get that, but just for the record, two things:
1. it is not “new”.
2. Martin Luther’s ideas were “new”.

And just as with Martin Luther’s ideas, what brought the ideas to the surface was a renewed ability of all Christians to access and read God’s word. In the modern case it is easily available internet searches, greek lexicons, etc. Just one example: At no time in my entire time as a Christian (from 1981) did any pastor reveal to me that the word “Hell” in the KJV was translated from the word Gehenna, nor did they clarify the meaning of Gehenna and its history.

Today, any Christian can go to Biblehub and other sites and look it up themselves. It is sort of a modern Martin Luther. :-)

[Mr. Douglas]

So, being burned up pays for your sins. Non-scriptural. More of a redefinition of God. Scriptures says only by faith in Christ and by His blood can sins be remitted. Now there is another way. It is nicer than Biblical truth, so it attracts those who can’t fathom a just God who keeps His promises. Substituting one who wouldn’t be so mean. Just what an itchy ear needs.

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Actually, it is quite scriptural. It’s actually more scriptural than the ECT teaching. That’s my point. As more and more open minded believers are exposed to the scriptures presented by BOTH sides of this argument, more and more believers are coming to the CI side, and for obvious reason.

[Mr. Douglas]

Eternal Conscious Torment. ECT

[Mr. Douglas]

Sorry, what I meant by “turn or burn” was “accept Christ or forever be consciously tortured in hell.”

That Message.

I agree with you that the lost die at the second death. It’s why it is called death. ;-)

[PeterPrinciple]

Jesus never used the word “hell”. He used the word Gehenna.

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The good news is that you are in the Bible. I always personally find that to be exciting, and then I think about it.

1Ti 6:4 Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions.

You argue that eternal punishment doesn’t mean forever, it is a period of time, and that it is meant for correction.

Well then you have to argue that ETERNAL LIFE is just for a period of time and doesn’t last forever either.

You major in minors, and minor it majors. You need to seek higher ground.

Pro_20:12 Ears to hear and eyes to see—both are gifts from the LORD.

Jesus favorite quote was “ear to hear”. May you hear his voice and not mine.....................

[Mr. Douglas]

You argue that eternal punishment doesn’t mean forever, it is a period of time, and that it is meant for correction.

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No. I don’t believe that at all. I think that may be a universalist thing.

I believe that it IS forever. I just believe it is a condition, rather than a place. Same with eternal life - immortality - given to believers (as opposed to NOT being given to non believers).

And the condition is that you are gone. You are dead, burned up, never to return.

[Mr. Douglas]

You major in minors, and minor it majors. You need to seek higher ground.

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Actually, the ECT vs CI issue is CRITICAL to me because I believe ECT is seriously damaging the Christian message for two reasons:
1. It is filling churches with people who are there to “hedge their bets” because they are afraid of “what if it is true” and so come to Christ out of fear. But the Gospel is about coming to Him out of desire to be with him in eternity, not fear of being eternally tormented.
2. It destroys the loving God message. The entire bible comes at us in a way we can understand with our human minds. Paul reasoned with people all over the place to bring them to Christ. The Bereans were complimented for SEARCHING WITH THEIR MINDS to see the truth of the Gospel. But when you bring this ECT thing to THINKING non-believers along with the “gospel” of love, it looks ridiculous. And it should. It makes a mockery of Christianity. But when you come to these people and offer the true Gospel of the Bible - that the fate of man from Genesis 3 is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, it is the positive message the gospel presents. We are saved from DEATH. Some will accept it and some won’t, but those that do will do so out of Desire to be with Christ in eternity rather than fear of a mean and vengeful God that created the entire human race with the knowledge that most of them would end up in his horrendous and eternal torture chamber. If the bible taught that, it would be one thing. But it doesn’t. Rather, men who have somehow lost the core of His message, for what ever reason, have embraced that interpretation in hopes that the fear factor would more fill church pews with givers that at least will give some of their money in their lostness to help the cause.

i.e. this is critical to the gospel because of the gross harm ECT teaching has done not only to the great commission, but to the spirits of those that are saved, but have loved ones, many of which will never accept Christ. I’ve seen these people and the constant misery they live, while attending church at every moment the doors are open.