Posted on 12/31/2015 4:29:48 PM PST by NYer
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is not the Trinity.
Therefore, Mary is not the mother of the Trinity.
I hope you don't get any Turkey again next year...
No Protestant on FR has ever shown where Scripture teaches that EVERY revealed truth is found explicitly taught in Scripture.
If sola scriptura is not taught in Scripture, then sola scriptura is self-contradictory.
His body can and was separated from his natures...
Yeah. The CCC. That teaches falsehoods directly AGAINST Scripture (see CCC 969... there is ONE mediator between God and men -- Jesus according to 1 Tim. 2:5. CCC teaches Mary as a Mediatrix... this is heresy). OH --- and CCC 841 that teaches that Catholics and Muslims adore the "same, merciful God." -- But Muslims don't worship God... they worship the false god Allah... yet the CCC teaches that Catholics adore the same "God" as Muslims.
Sure you want to stick with that?
Hoss
If sola scriptura is not taught in Scripture, then sola scriptura is self-contradictory.
No Protestant has to do any such thing... because Sola Scriptura does not teach that every revealed truth is taught in Scripture; it teaches that everything we need to know about salvation and living a Christian life, and spiritual matters IS found in scripture. You're the one who's continually making a Straw Man and arguing with him.
It's already been posted so many times, but here you go, Arthur, just for you so you can flush out your headgear and get with the program:
From ligonier.org:
"The Reformation principle of Sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture. It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that "scientific truth," for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture--but Scripture is a "more sure Word," standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is "more sure," according to the apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore, Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter on which it speaks.
But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary. Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture (2 Peter 1:3).
Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take away from Scripture (cf. Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Rev. 22:18-19). To add to it is to lay on people a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matt. 23:4).
Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved and all that we must do in order to glorify God. That--no more, no less--is what sola Scriptura means.
"The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men." -- Westminster Confession of Faith
This excerpt is taken from John MacArthur's contribution in Sola Scriptura: The Protestant Position on the Bible."
Now... even your church's first Pope wrote about it. Why do you complain? Oh, that's right: your church makes up an erroneous definition and the attacks it relentlessly, all the time acting in error. Go back and read the definition again and reconcile it to what you just wrote.
Hoss
"Faithful is He that calleth you, for He will also do it; many are called but few are chosen>"
Now, can you see why so few are THE Chosen? ... For a catholic it is so very hard to get this simple Truth ... so few are the Chosen because so few will let Him do it! And here's the practical application: is your spiritual problem attached to a drinking problem, an anger problem, a pornography problem, a chronic lying problem, etc.? To the degree that you take that to Him for His dealing with that problem, He will change you from the inside out; He will raise His babies up in the Way that they should go. BUT, if you continue in the problem not taking the problem to Him for His cure, thinking you can be good enough to be a member in His family by your efforts and the absolution imagined you receive from a priest, well, the problem remains in your heart, your behavior mechanism, festering and oozing out, never cured. Faithful is He that calleth you for He will also do it.
Just so you know, I have catholic acquaintances who have become so desperate that even they took their problem to Jesus despite the priestly assignments. They are the ones being transformed into the image of The Son.
Do you really believe that every single Protestant pastor does not subscribe to a catechism? Or are you just repeating something you heard that tickled your ears without checking on it yourself?
Speaking of which, why have you not responded to the challenge I made to you to PROVE there are tens of thousands of Protestant denominations?
Did you mean to be funny? Or did you mean:
You're funny? (as in You are funny) or
Your funny bone? or
Your funny bunny? or
Your funny nose? or what??
But you still insinuate that someone who has an intellectual disability is incapable of having a saving faith. And that is very sad and very wrong, for they are just as much made in His image as anyone is.
D'oh! Dang it! I keep forgetting that RCs really don't rely on Scripture. Sorry.
Hoss
:)
No you're not seeing my point. The divinity of Jesus although uncreated and not made is not in question when one says Mary the Mother of God. That is a misshapen understanding of what it means to be a mother.
Of course there is a way to qualify it, as the Holy Spirit does, as this birth was no ordinary birth, yet MoD is almost always used without any qualification and as part of the .
Scripture does say it was no ordinary birth precisely because Jesus is the Incarnate God. One person with two natures. That is not unscripturual unless you're wedded to the idea that the Trinity is not a valid term, and the Bible should be untranslated. The definition of the terms is contained within the statement mother of God. Its not ambiguous unless one believes Jesus divinity is ambiguous. It points to what reality is incredible about the birth of Christ, namely that he is divine.
This is why generations must should call her blessed (LK 1:48)
And again, this makes Jews and Romans murderers of God, God-killers, which also can be said in a qualified sense as technically correct,
Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she declared in Lk 1:41-43:
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord (Kyrios) should come to me?
The divinity of Jesus is not a technically. Jesus is unambiguously God. Mary is unambiguously "Mother of the Kyrios, the Lord God." (Lk 1:43) His sacrifice is unambiguous. Jesus is unambiguously fully God and fully man. He is one person with two natures. Do you not believe in Christ's crucifixion as the means for mankind's salvation? If His nature was ambiguous, His sacrifice would therefore be ambiguous.
I rejection the formal title MoG we are not denying that Mary gave birth to the second person of the Trinity no matter how often you resort to trying to charge this in order to almost demand she be called by this title as well as be given all the hyper-exaltion that Spirit of God nowhere provides in Scripture.
The Second Person is Jesus and is God. His union of two natures in one person is not ambiguous. The Motherhood of Mary as Mother of the person Jesus also means she is the Mother of God. Since Jesus has ever not been God. This is why, Elizabeth declared it
But Scripture is only an abused servant for many RCs in wresting it to support of Rome. Oh that's rich, considering the Church wrote it, and protected it for 1500 years before you johnny come lately's rebelled to wallow now in ignorance of the basic truths of Christianity. Not even Martin Luther rejected the title of Mary as Mother of God, because he agree'd that it was an inseparable reality that Jesus is God and Man, which Mary as Mother of God points to.
In what way is the person Jesus separated from his body without it being Adoptionism, or Patripassionism. If Nestorianism is your thinking, than this too means God did not really assume humanity.
It is not the only title. The reason Mother of God is effective and useful is firstly because it is true, and secondly because people who deny it do so on basis that obscure the salvation of mankind.
Mary is the Mother of the "Kyrios," the Lord God and Savior. (Lk 1:43)
Just pointing the misguided souls stuck in the muck of false beliefs towards the Kingdom of God.
Funny huh?
King James Bible Matthew 7:13Take a look to the right and left as you go down your path.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat
What do you see?Lots of stuff can fit on that wide path.
Statues, icons, assumed Catholic Mary (perhaps in a picture in a caucus thread floating in the sky at the same tinme standing on the heads of babies,) sinless Mary, still a virgin Mary, Mary denying the marriage bed to her husband, popes that fathered another pope while celibate, a pope who loved hearing the screams of his enemy screaming while being tortured, Mary lifted up to supplanting Jesus for salvation, endless ritual, purgatory, turning Jesus into a piece of bread and sticking it in a fancy gold frame and so you can sit there adoring it while Jesus is looking on shaking his head, holy water, condescending attitudes towards born again Christians, the body of Christ is the Catholic Church, I could go on and on would you like links?
There's that pesky Bible again.1 Corinthians 1:18-31King James Version (KJV)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
It's pretty clear, needs no interpretation if you look at it through the eyes of the Holy Spirit's guidenance.
All are welcome on the narrow path to salvation and a personal relationship with Jesus but you must give up your life to obtain Eternal Life with God. (scripture reference available upon request)
Why do you keep quoting to a badly translated version of the Bible btw?
I guess its proper to enumerate a summation of points here.
1. Jesus is unambiguously God.
2. Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
3. Mary is the Mother of God.
(IS 9:6-7, Jn 1:1, Jn 1:14, Lk 1:43, Lk 1:32, I have plenty more)
To deny the third point is to deny a reality of the first point. Thus I’d quote (1 John 2:22)
The Title Mother of God does not imply diminished Godhead. It does imply the truth that Jesus is God. The truth is that Mary bore the Second Person of the Trinity in her womb. She shared Her humanity with Him, and gave birth to Him. She also raised Him.
That Makes her the Mother of God. The Humanity and Divinity must be communicable realities in one person that way. Its not ambiguous, it is not heretical, it is wholly Orthodox (I’ll give a nod to the Eastern Churches for whom we can thank for the struggles to retain Christianity).
Well, I guess when you've got nothing better to say, you just comment on the translation.
Pretty much says it all.
Hoss
Which makes her the mother of Jesus. And nothing more.
Jesus IS God the Son. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are all God. Did Mary bear them all? For if Christ is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, and to claim Mary is the "Mother of God," failing to include ALL of the Godhead would seem to me to be wrong.
Hoss
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.