Posted on 07/01/2015 7:13:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Perhaps if you weren’t so entrenched in “churchianity” you would understand what bringing down false doctrines that lead people away from, and prevent them from, enjoying the assurance of salvation is about..instead of proclaiming the victim card which is taught as a response when one doesn’t or can’t defend their position.
So why not instead defend Catholcism’s position of salvation which is what this thread is about.
I have always thought the Church of Christ, not to be confused with the Philippine Church of Christ (INC) as just another works based religion, among many, and if church of Christ doctrine is true, then drown me in the baptistry, because that is the only way I can make it.
I know that from personal experience as you know where I am at the moment. 😇😂😀
This shows either a complete misunderstanding or a misrepresentation of Catholic belief. Catholics do not believe that we get to Heaven by earning enough brownie points to make up for our sins. Rather the difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Protestants believe that we are saved merely from the penalty of sin while Catholics believe we are saved from sin itself, i.e. the disorder of the soul that turns us away from the love of God to the selfish love of self.
Protestantism falls into the same legalistic trap as the Pharisees. They view sin as merely an external violation of a legal precept given by God. For the Pharisee reparation is made by the Temple sacrifices. For the Protestant reparation is made by the penal substitution of the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. Thus while man is still left with a corrupt soul God accepts the sacrifice of Jesus as the payment for the debt of sin. It is this legalistic view of salvation that causes Protestants to think that Catholics believe that there is something lacking in the merit of Jesus sacrifice when they do not hold to salvation by faith alone.
Catholicism rejects this purely legalistic view of salvation and holds that we are saved from sin itself. For Catholics the merits of the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross opens up to us the grace of God that will actually change the disorder of the soul which is sin. That this is what God wants from us is clear from the declaration of Jesus on the greatest of the commandments:
When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, and one of them [a scholar of the law] tested him by asking, “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22:34-40)Paul likewise shows the necessity of love, and not just faith, for our salvation:
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.… So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3,13)The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches Justification thus:
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism: (Rom 3:22; cf 6:3-4)Justification therefore is not merely the imputation of God's justice but the act of God by which we receive his grace that makes us just, reflecting the love of God. This is completely unmerited and a gracious gift of God but one with which we must cooperate.But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. (Rom 6:8-11)1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: (Cf 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4)[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized. (St. Athanasius, Ep. Serap. 1,24:PG26,585 and 588.)1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mt 4:17) Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. (Council of Trent (1547):DS1528)1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: (Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529)
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:21-26)1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight. (Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525)1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." (St. Augustine, In Jo. ev. 72,3:PL 35, 1823.) He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," (Cf. Rom 7:33; Eph 3:16) justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. (Rom 6:19,22)
That the forgiveness of our sins is dependent on more than just our faith is clear in what Jesus says after giving us the Lord's Prayer:
If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. (Matthew 6:14-15)Even after faith we must have the love of neighbor to forgive them their transgressions against us in order to have God forgive us.
IMO your post, which asserted that the United Church of Christ's message is an accurate portrayal of the "Protestant Gospel", certainly gives the impression that Catholics have no desire to accurately represent the Protestant message. Just based on your own post, Jesus won't be getting his wish.
Speaking of "a complete misunderstanding or a misrepresentation"....
Jesus died ONCE for sinners and He rose again. There is no perpetual sacrifice of Jesus for us to participate in. He is not forever being sacrificed outside of time, for in that case, He'd be forever suffering and dying in heaven. Not much of a heaven for HIM, eh?
But this is what Scripture tells us Jesus is doing in heaven at the moment. The living and resurrected Jesus is seated in heaven at God's right hand interceding for us.
Jesus in heaven
Acts 2:32-36 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
Acts 5:30-31 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Ephesians 1:15-23 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Ephesians 2:4-6 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Hebrews 9:11-17 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 8:1-2 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man.
Hebrews 9:24-28 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:8-14 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Hebrews 10:15-18 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Hebrews 12:1-2 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Peter 3:21-22 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
When a human is born from above, God puts His Holy Spirit life in them. They are then and forever more a member of His family with the Righteousness of Christ imparted to them by adoption. If a person is not born from above, they will strive to obtain the Life of God in them and never achieve it that way. There is only one Way, by faith and no works will ever be good enough in your flesh to merit even in the tiniest portion what ONLY God has and ONLY GOD can place in you. We see the evidence of that at Pentecost and in the House of Cornelius, where none of the Catholic means to salvation were necessary to have God’s Life come into those listening who believed the message that Jesus is the ONLY means by which we must be saved.
Beautiful are the feet of those who bring The Truth.
If someone has faith yet is still attached to sin, is he saved? Is the unrepentant adulterer who has faith saved? Is the unrepentant murderer who has faith saved?
Alex,
I agree with you, the “United Church of Christ” has drifted, over the decades, from being oriented toward Jesus and God to secular humanism “with a bit of Christian lingo.” (to use a Rush Limbaugh term.)
G-F
Bkm
Now Nicolaitanizers want to then measure these sinners who get saved by believing in Jesus without a lifetime of working to obtain. James gave you pickers at nits a way to do that measuring, but never presume that you can see the inward parts based upon the outward behaviors. ONLY God sees the inward parts. Some take years to be slapped around by their sinning before they sit still long enough to listen to the Holy Spirit God placed in them when they First believed they needed what ONLY God provides in Jesus The Christ.
Can you read the Bible and see God putting His Life in those who simply believed the message on the day of Pentecost or those in the house of Cornelius who had God put His Holy Spirit in them even before Peter finished the sermon?
Would you presume to tell anyone the sin status of any or all of those into whom God placed His spirit in those instances? would you presume to tell us ALL then walked in perfect sinless living for the rest of their days? Of course you would not do that. You know you and I have no powers to look back in time. But God verified that it is ONLY by placing Faith in Jesus as The One God send for the Salvation of souls, by immediately placing His Spirit in them regardless of the faults they had yet to iron out under Holy Spirit leadership. Everyone into whom the Holy Spirit came was that very day born from above never to be unborn from above, because God Promises that exact status for the believer in Christ.
But there is One Who can look back and way forward in Time, and know the end from the beginning. Those He predestinates are those He looks forward in time to see the final outcome of their PROFESSION of FAITHJ in CHRIST as Savior and Lord. You and I can only watch the day to day behaviors and have no access tot he tomorrow behaviors.
James said he would show his saving faith by his works. That's fine, if you could look back and see every behavior James made from the day he first believed his brother was The Christ. He didn't believe it at first, and it was not until after the Resurrected Savior stood before him that he came to believe what he had been told.
For you and me,, well we must use faith to activate our discernment. There is actually a SPiritual Gift of Discernment, given to some, a very few some, that allows the one to know whom is before them in prayer or in person and see whether they are born from above or not. I don't have that gift. Do you? Would you pronounce judgment based upon behaviors, before the ends are reached? God can do it because He sees from the beginning through to the end, and He selects (predestinates) those who will believe in the One He Has Sent.
Since Jesus spread His blood upon the Mercy Seat over top of the laws, there are no law violations which can be legitimately counted against those in God's family by adoption, regardless of what satan accuses.
Simple basic gospel compared to Pauls-
If people believe Jesus died on good Friday that is according to Rome’s Catechism and calendar, not what Paul knew as Scripture (Passover Lamb)
If people believe Jesus rose on easter Sunday that too is according to Rome’s catechism and Rome’s calendar not what Paul knew as Scripture (First Fruits)
Roman Christianity has a real problem to solve when people can see how Passover floats around the Roman calendar counter to what Scripture calls it- the 14th day of His 1st month..and when one studies the calendar in scripture, the 14th day of every one of His months is the 6th and final work day of His week (which is why the 15th day are Sabbaths in scripture)
What if, just if, Rome has created another Jesus thanks to their catechism and their calendar, which Daniel says Rome would be a part of changing times and laws ( 4th beast,- Daniel ,7:25)
And people keep missing what has been right in front of their eyes- Rome has created another Jesus, a Roman one. With another gospel.
Just by comparing Paul’s references to the Scriptures, or sola scriptura, Rome could be the satanic vessel the 1st reformers called the seat of ‘antichrist’.
Not opposed like we understand anti to mean today- but instead of, in place of- like a concordance would also have as a definition for ‘anti’..
Rome’s Jesus the antichrist
That should be a scary thought to protestant daughters.
It won’t because Rome sets the premise and the daughters argue from there.
That is why satan deceives the whole world. Thanks to Rome.
Come out .
'Unlocking The Secrets of The Feasts' Michael Norten
Um . . . no it's not. The Catholic Church has adopted and promotes almost exclusively and dogmatically nineteenth century radical German Protestant "criticism" of the Biblical text. It does this specifically out of the belief that doing so will discredit the Protestant doctrines of sola scriptura and "bibliolatry."
All Catholic bibles carry the most radical higher critical commentary. Those few Catholics who dissent are compared to He Who Must Not Be Named and reminded that "fundamentalism is a Protestant phenomenon" and that "this is not our fight."
And for what it's worth, I am not a Protestant and reject both sola scriptura and bibliolatry.
So an unrepentant murderer who still has hate in his soul is saved. The one lacks the love to forgive others is also save. How do you reconcile this with what Jesus said: "If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions." Or with his declaration that if we are to enter into eternal life we must keep the commandments. You need to stop trying to force that round peg of sola fide into the square whole of Scripture. Sola fide is a manmade tradition that is contrary to Scripture.
I have not.but I don’t need to because I know when the Messiah was born because He records it in Revelation 12 and in His sky.
And when one understands what that represents, every major life event recorded (birth,circumcision, dedication,baptism, death, burial, resurrection, Holy Spirit) all fell on either a New Moon Day, Sabbath or Feast.
The Word made flesh..( and not necessarily when Judaism observes them today- a witness to their blindness)
And kind of hard not to pay attention to those Holy Appointments when they line up with everything He did in His first coming..
People can know this. It may take rejecting and nonconforming to the world’s which is one of the Father’s will for our lives.
Thief in the night..
It's not by the Priest's power or authority.
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