Posted on 03/24/2015 3:57:42 PM PDT by NYer
I reckon Charles Manson is in California’s Corcoran State Prison.
“unconditional election,” where, according to strict Calvinism, the elect are born Christians
Flat out wrong.
Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dalhmer were “saved”. Rekon their in heaven?
Wait and see.
Thanks for the ping and your comments at post # 105. As to the question of “once saved, always saved,” that is above my pay grade. I believe the Lord decides who is and isn’t saved.
As our hermeneutics professor would say;
“A verse taken out of context is a pretext”
“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” ~ Matthew 25: 31-46
Are these all you need to do??
Surely the roman catholic church has a number or a list.
What say you?
Before one is saved one is a sinner. Because you do not have faith in Christ you are already judged and your eternal future will be Hell. There will be no get out of jail card....no amount of penance or praying from anyone will get you out of Hell.
Now, the sinner, if they give a cup of water to a person, or if they clothe someone they are still sinners if they do not have faith in Christ.
We have lots of examples of people who do "good works" everyday. But they are not saved anymore than the computer I'm typing on. The "good works" do not save you. Hitler instituted programs that feed the German people. Were those "good works" enough to save him?
So the "good works" some are clinging to do not and will not save you....nor do they keep your salvation. If they did we need to toss out most of what Paul wrote about. If it were all about "good works", Christ died needlessly.
A sinner comes to Christ through faith (John 3:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:43, Rms 1:16-17, Rms 4:3). They believe Jesus died for them and forgives their sins. The Bible tells us they are a new creature in Christ. The believer will now be guided by the Holy Spirit as He is their Helper (John 14:16, 26)and Advocate now. Not Mary, not Paul, not momma or daddy who have gone on to Heaven or any of the other saints.
Galatians notes that the fruit of the Spirit will be evident. As an apple tree produces apples so the Christian will produce fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-25).
A natural outgrowth of being a believer will be good works. But these do not save us, nor do they keep us saved as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise who has been given as a pledge of our inheritance (Eph 1:13-14, 4:30).
As we are saved, we cannot be bad enough to "lose" our salvation as our sins are now completely forgiven by the work of Christ on the cross (Col 2:13-14).
We can grieve the Holy Spirit by how we live to be sure.
Will we struggle with sin? Yes we will as we see in the life of Paul and Peter. Paul admitted he struggled with sin(Rms 7:15-25) but he recognized that he was no longer condemned because of his faith in Christ (Rms 7:24-8:2).
The Bible is clear: our sins, through the shed blood of Christ, are completely forgiven. Do we produce good fruit for the Kingdom...yes we do as we are guided by the Holy Spirit.
The writer of Hebrews 13:5 in quoting the OT noted God will never desert your, nor will He forsake us.
Paul writes in Romans 8, if God is for us, who is against us? He also notes in Romans 8:35-39...what shall separate us from the love of Christ? The answer: NOTHING!
I leave you with this from John: (JN 3:16-18)
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
“Well that’s it, boys. I’ve been redeemed. The preacher’s done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It’s the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting’s my reward.
Delmar, what are you talking about?.
The preacher says all my sins is warshed away, including that Piggly Wiggly I knocked over in Yazoo.
I thought you said you was innocent of those charges?
Well I was lyin’. And the preacher says that that sin’s been warshed away too. Neither God nor man’s got nothin’ on me now.”
C’mon in boys, the water is fine. ~ Delmar O’Donnell
Good chatting with you as always NK.
Ah, a little humor never hurt anyone. Now to the crux of the matter.
Evangelicals and other kinds of Protestants in their commendable zeal often distill the writings of Saint Paul to such an extent that they miss the complexities and nuances of the Apostle. This is especially the case when it comes to Saint Paul’s doctrine of salvation. As a result, the Evangelical doctrine of “once saved always saved” misses the nuances of Paul’s doctrine. Paul does in fact teach that “nothing can separate us from the love of God” (Rom 8:39). However, he also clearly states that certain Christians have “fallen from grace” (Gal 5:4). What does the Apostle mean when he says that certain Christians have fallen from grace?
The Apostle explains, “I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” (1 Cor 9:27). Here the prize is salvation, as is clear from the preceding verses. Saint Paul follows a disciplined life because he knows that there is a possibility that he might forfeit the salvation that he preaches. For this reason, in the very next chapter, Paul encourages the Christians in Corinth to do the same: “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall” (1 Cor 10:12). The “fall” here is the “fall from grace” spoken about by Paul in Galatians 5:4. Interestingly enough, the warning about falling from grace in Galatians 5:4 is immediately followed up by Paul’s exhortation to have “faith working through love” in Galatians 5:6.
Since the Apostle believes that one might fall from grace, he elsewhere encourages the Christians in Philippi to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Here again we see Paul’s emphasis on a “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6). We are to work out our salvation. While it is a gift, it requires our effort. If you receive the gift of a bicycle, it is worthless until you actually get on the bike and start peddling. If the giver of the gift saw the bicycle leaning against the wall in your garage covered in dust, he would be offended. The giver wanted the recipient to enjoy cycling, but this intention was never realized. The same is true of salvation. The gift of salvation has been given to us so that we can be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29). This is a profound honor. We are called not only to believe in Christ, but also to become like Christ. We participate in the life of Christ. It is for this reason that we are called Christians. This means that our life is characterized by acts pertaining to faith, hope, and charity (1 Cor 13:13). When we willingly break the bond our bond of charity with Christ, we fall from grace.
As always...context is key.
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
>Some background: The Judaizers had come to this group of believers and was telling them they had to be circumcised and keep the Law in order to be saved. In other words, they had to do "works" to be saved.
>This group has not "fallen" from grace....yet. Paul is giving them a warning that if they accept circumcision and the Law as the basis for their "salvation", then they will have fallen from grace. >
> You are fallen from grace if you are relying upon anything other than Christ.
>Paul goes on in v5-6 to make it clear it's all about faith in Jesus.
For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Since the Apostle believes that one might fall from grace,
We've addressed this in the prior post. Paul does not believe they can "fall from grace", unless you are relying upon circumcision and the Law for your salvation. Then you are no longer under grace....but works.
he elsewhere encourages the Christians in Philippi to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12).
Again, context is the key here. In the same letter to the Philippians in 3 Paul again makes it clear we are not to rely upon works or our deeds for our salvation.
In 3:1-3 Paul again gives an admonition not to be conformed to the Judaizers (these were busy people!).....in v3 he notes...we glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.
That sure doesn't sound like someone who is advocating "working" for your salvation....does it?
In v4-6 he gives an outline of reasons why he "could" brag about the flesh, but then in 7-14 he makes it clear he is relying only upon faith in Christ....
v9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
Again, that sure doesn't sound like someone attempting to "work out" their salvation does it?
We are to work out our salvation.
No....there's nothing, NOTHING, we can do to earn our salvation or keep it. It's all from Jesus. If not, we elevate ourselves to the cross if there is anything we have that is "good enough". Recall, Paul in Phil 3:8 considered all of the things he could boast about to be rubbish. The greek word for rubbish has the meaning of waste thrown to dogs; stuff that is good for nothing except to be discarded.
Does that sound like a man who is telling the Philippians, or anyone else, to rely upon the flesh and any "deeds"?
While it is a gift, it requires our effort.
If it requires our effort, it is no longer a gift. What could we possibly do that would even begin to approach what Jesus did on the cross for us? NOTHING!!!!!! Paul noted in Phil 3:8 that he has nothing to brag about....no effort on his part, not his past as a Pharisee, not being in the tribe of Benjamin, not being a Hebrew of Hebrews, he was found blameless in the Law.
Yet none, none of this was "good enough".
If you receive the gift of a bicycle, it is worthless until you actually get on the bike and start peddling.
The key here is that we received the gift...we did nothing to "earn the bicycle."
If the giver of the gift saw the bicycle leaning against the wall in your garage covered in dust, he would be offended. The giver wanted the recipient to enjoy cycling, but this intention was never realized.
I will agree that once we have faith in Christ we are to produce fruit....the fruit of the Spirit as mentioned in Galatians. Sadly, some will bear a little fruit, but others will produce a whole bunch like Paul. But that fruit does not save us or keep us saved, else we have something to boast about which Paul in Philippians clearly said we don't.
The same is true of salvation. The gift of salvation has been given to us so that we can be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29).
This is a profound honor. We are called not only to believe in Christ, but also to become like Christ. We participate in the life of Christ. It is for this reason that we are called Christians. This means that our life is characterized by acts pertaining to faith, hope, and charity (1 Cor 13:13).
On this there is no agreement! I would add Galatians regarding the fruit of the Spirit and there are other places that show us how we are to live as Christians. We are to be Christ-like in our day to day actions with others. See, we can agree!
When we willingly break the bond our bond of charity with Christ, we fall from grace
What sin is there that is greater than the shed blood of Christ than can unseal what has been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13-14)?
How big does that sin have to be that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross couldn't cover it (Rms 4:7-8)?
Romans 8:1 tells us there is "therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Hey....excellent discussion! I enjoy this kind of exchange.
Pardon me for butting into the discussion... :-) The OP's question was whether "once saved, always saved" is in the Bible. Paul here opposes that doctrine, and you seem to agree with him. Or have I misunderstood you?
Paul is saying that if you are depending on circumcision and keeping the Law, then you are no longer under grace. You have gone back to works which cannot save you.
What's happening in Galatians is that Judaizers are telling the new Christians they have to be circumcised and to keep the Law to be saved, which is not being under grace. Hence that would be a "falling away" from grace.
The people Paul are writing to are Gentile Christians who are saved and living under grace.
Paul is arguing that once you are saved under grace in Christ, you are always saved. If you appeal to anything other than grace for your salvation, such as works/good deeds to keep/earn your salvation then you have "fallen away" from grace. You are no longer relying upon Christ.
Hope that helps. If not, let me know.
In that situation, are you still saved? Were those who preached this "other gospel" to the Galatians still saved?
Let me answer this with a question....was Peter still saved when he was refusing to eat with the Gentiles as he was being influenced by the Judaizers as well?
Paul confronted Peter on this and corrected him. This is what Paul was doing with the church in Galatia and at the same time the Judaizers.
We have no indication in the Word that contradicts that Peter was saved. Nor did Peter in any of his writings indicate he had "fallen away" and need to be "saved" again.
To be sure there are some who teach you can lose your salvation through your sins. This is not supported in the Word. If it were possible to lose salvation due to a sin you commit, that means the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover the sin. And that is not the case.
Paul says, "if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing." (5:2) If they receive circumcision (i.e. submit to the Law of Moses), and Christ profits them nothing, are they still saved?
I'll let 1 John 2:19 answer this one....“They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”
But what if a believer begins to slide, deviate, wonder, whatever term you want to use....?
We have the Holy Spirit to either pull the believer back or He uses another believer to confront the brother/sister and guide them back. I have the image of Jesus as the Good Shepherd in mind here. Sheep sometimes wander off and the job of the shepherd is to bring them back!
I refer to the example of Peter again.
This is the reason why God has given us the Holy Spirit of promise. He is there to guide us and direct us in all things.
One last thing I will leave you with. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. He has been given to us as a pledge of our inheritance. The greek indicates the Holy Spirit is a downpayment, ernest money, on our future inheritance. We are never unsealed per the New Testament.
But that wasn't my question. My question was whether leaving Christ for "another gospel" causes one to lose his salvation. Paul wasn't writing to unbelievers in Galatia. He wrote this warning to Christians, lest they be led astray, lest Christ profit them nothing and they be lost without Him.
I again defer to 1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB)
>If it were possible to lose salvation due to a sin you commit, that means the blood of Christ is insufficient to cover the sin.<
Is the blood of Christ insufficient to cover the sins of disbelievers?
If by disbelievers you mean people who have not placed their faith/belief in Christ......then no. Those sins are not forgiven.
For the believer, all sins are forgiven....past, present and future. We may not believe/feel they are, but they are based on the Word.
The question is not one of sufficiency to cover sins, but rather WHOSE sins are covered. Those who abide in Christ or those who abandon Him? Those who "walk in the light as He is in the light" or those who leave the light to walk in darkness?
I again defer to 1 John 2:19
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called 'Today,' lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: 'Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.'" - Heb. 3:12-15
The warning here is against unbelievers.
Is the following a conditional statement?...
"Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience." - Heb. 4:11
Not in the Greek if I've read my books correctly. It is a Hortatory Subjunctive which can be used as an exhortation....which in this case fits as the writer is saying we should fear.
I think the key word here is ὑστερηκέναι. The root word for this verb means to fall short, miss out on what is vital.
What would be vital to enter His rest? Faith in Christ.
If there's no risk, then hasn't the author of Hebrews deceived us with these empty warnings?
Again, this all comes down to faith in Christ. None will enter "His rest" without faith in Christ.
The real issue here is this:
Jesus said: Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24)
On your security in Him: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. (John 10:27-28)
Do you believe Jesus at His word?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.