Posted on 03/24/2015 3:57:42 PM PDT by NYer
Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dalhmer were “saved”. Rekon their in heaven?
The writer spoke truth to power. God Bless him!
This is a selective view of scriptures which ignores many others. I can very easily provide verses that would seem to say that a man can believe without grace or the work of the Holy Spirit, yet we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that "no one confesses Christ as Lord but by the Holy Ghost".
The first part of the chapter in Romans 11 talks about unbelieving Israel which is "cut off," while yet an Elect number are preserved, and not on the basis of any merit of their own, but by the preservation of God:
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Augustine demonstrates that this is not upon the basis of any merit on their own, or by the action of their will or by their future works, but by God's mercy only, in his analysis of Romans 9:
“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)
Romans 11, therefore, when speaking of the vine and these being cut off, and yet others preserved according to free grace, can only be referring therefore to corporate Israel in a Church-state. All those whom are lost are not those whom God has preserved, but can only be those whom God has not chosen to elect. To be cut off most likely refers to excommunication, or even to a time where the Gentile world should be removed from having a visible and united church.
That those who are "cut off" cannot be the Elect is quite clear from verses like: 1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, if they had been of Christ, they would have remained with us. Therefore all those who leave us, as Augustine concludes, were not truly of the body of Christ, but were necessarily removed:
“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. 1 John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)
This is a proof testified all over the holy scriptures. In John 6 we read "All that the Father gives to me shall come to me, and whoever comes to me I shall never cast out." The Father gives to the Son from eternity, and all those, in time, inevitably come before the Son in faith. Hence the unbelieving Jews, some of whom (if not all) were his former disciples, are told that the cause of their unbelief is not their stupidity or their refusal, but rather: "there are some of you who do not believe. That is why I told you, no man can come to me unless it is given to Him by the Father." again He says, "all that the Father has given to me I shall raise up again at the last day" within the same chapter. In still other places throughout the Gospel of John, He promises that none of His sheep can escape His hand, and the cause of the Pharisees unbelief is that "you are not of my sheep". Regarding Hebrews 6-- I like John Calvin's explanation for these verses:
"But here arises a new question, how can it be that he who has once made such a progress should afterwards fall away? For God, it may be said, calls none effectually but the elect, and Paul testifies that they are really his sons who are led by his Spirit, (Romans 8:14;) and he teaches us, that it is a sure pledge of adoption when Christ makes us partakers of his Spirit. The elect are also beyond the danger of finally falling away; for the Father who gave them to be preserved by Christ his Son is greater than all, and Christ promises to watch over them all so that none may perish. To all this I answer, That God indeed favors none but the elect alone with the Spirit of regeneration, and that by this they are distinguished from the reprobate; for they are renewed after his image and receive the earnest of the Spirit in hope of the future inheritance, and by the same Spirit the Gospel is sealed in their hearts. But I cannot admit that all this is any reason why he should not grant the reprobate also some taste of his grace, why he should not irradiate their minds with some sparks of his light, why he should not give them some perception of his goodness, and in some sort engrave his word on their hearts. Otherwise, where would be the temporal faith mentioned by Mark 4:17? There is therefore some knowledge even in the reprobate, which afterwards vanishes away, either because it did not strike roots sufficiently deep, or because it withers, being choked up. 98 And by this bridle the Lord keeps us in fear and humility; and we certainly see how prone human nature is otherwise to security and foolish confidence. At the same time our solicitude ought to be such as not to disturb the peace of conscience. For the Lord strengthens faith in us, while he subdues our flesh: and hence he would have faith to remain and rest tranquilly as in a safe haven; but he exercises the flesh with various conflicts, that it may not grow wanton through idleness."
There is much support for this, as Judas also is given the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and is commanded with the rest of the Apostles to perform miracles (Matt 10:1-4). Yet Judas is not counted as one of those whom God would preserve, but was a thief, a liar and a devil, and called the "son of perdition." And Judas would not be the last of them, for there are many others who will protest to God that they have performed miracles on behalf of God, or prophecized in His name, only to be told "I never knew you," they never having a true fellowship with the Father, never having been regenerated, but, like the seed in the bad soil, they shrivel up and die.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
By the way, the doctrice of "OSAS," or I prefer "Final Preservation," should never be taught to mean that no one can ever fall away for a time and then return to Christ. I myself, through a very dark period in my life, was almost no better than an atheist; if this scripture were to be believed literally, it would have been impossible for me to return to the good graces of God, even stronger than what I was before! (In fact, getting my butt kicked by the world, according to the providence of God, was the best thing that could have happened to me! Thus proving the verse that says "For all things work together unto good for them who love God, who are the called according to His purpose.") Nor should this verse ever be taught to claim that a person can sin all that he or she wants and never pay a penalty, because the mark of true faith in the believer is that he produces good fruit, and thus it is impossible that anyone who claims to be a believer should become a rampant sinner.
Are you really really sure this is in proper context? Many were chided for having fallen from Grace because, even thought Christ paid for their sins and the rituals of the past (circumcision/diet, etc.) were no longer required, many decided that Christ wasn't good enough - they still had to yoke themselves to trying to be worthy through their own deeds.
Christ paid for our sins and freed them from the ritualistic trying to be worthy of the Old Covenant.
Once saved in Christ, God promised He would "Forgive your wickedness and recognize your sins no more". That doesn't mean we will never commit sinful acts once saved, it means He will no longer count them against us. To believe else is to call God a liar when He spoke through the prophets.
The only unpardonable sin (there was never a sliding scale of sins in God's mind but some men had to make one up to complicate things) was/is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
A better conversation might be whether once saved, a person would even be able to blaspheme the Holy Spirit - that might be the only condition which would allow someone to be "un-saved".
Can you imagine Christ giving you a hand up into His lifeboat then deciding to toss you back overboard? I can't.
Good post and point. I know that I want to follow Jesus, but sometimes I stumble and hope that He will forgive me for those stumbles.
And you statement of “There is a big difference between falling in a temptation and choosing to walk away from God.” is very clear and what I think is correct, for I trust that Jesus believes His gift of salvation is forever and will NEVER be terminated by Him or His Father.
I don’t know where my trust falls in Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox dogma/doctrine, but it is what sustains me and keeps me going toward Him.
David committed adultery and murder and lied. Reckon he's in Heaven?
Paul killed Christians.....reckon he's in Heaven?
Abraham lied, committed adultery....reckon he's in Heaven?
Moses committed murder....reckon he's in Heaven?
Peter lied....reckoned he's in Heaven?
Salvation is based upon our fidelity, by God’s grace, to his commandments (Mt 19:16-17; 25:46; Jn 3:36; Rom 2:6-10; 1 Tm 6:18-19; Jas 1:12; 2 Tm 2:12).
You just shifted salvation from faith to salvation by works.
The burden is now upon us, from your prespective for our salvation; something not supported by the Bible.
If the burden of salvation is upon our works, then Jesus needlessly died on the cross.
Tell me NKP_Vet.....how many good works do you have to do to earn/keep your salvation? Are you keeping the entire Law? Because that's what you're back under from your perspective. You're back to offering a sacrifice in the Temple again to cover your sins.
Do you have a track record of what you've done?
How do you know you're doing the right things?
Have your "good deeds" outdone your bad deeds? If you are using this scale you might as well become muslim. Allah uses a scale to judge his followers.
If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Heb 10:26-31).
Paul wrote about this very issue in Romas 7:15-25. He struggled with sin...as we all do. He even noted that the good he wanted to do, he did not do it; rather he practiced the evil he did not want to do.
By your thinking Paul had lost his salvation. And if I'm reading your post correctly, there was no loner any hope of regaining salvation.
Paul goes on to write the following in Romans 7:24-8:2 wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
The sacrifice Jesus made on the cross covers ALL of our sins.....past, present and future. He has paid the price for our sins.
Colosssians 2:13-14 tells us He has cancelled out our sin debt and has nailed it to the cross. Our sins are cancelled out. The Greek word used for cancelled indicates they are blotted out....removed.....gone. This is echoed in Romans 4:7-8.
Jesus has forgiven ALL of your sins if you believe in Him.
There are many today who deny affiliation to any church, any denomination. They consider themselves saved, or born-again, and interpret the Bible for themselves. When I was away from the Church, I had folks trying to convince me that this was the way to go. I had people who lived together as man and wife, who were not married, tell me it was not a sin, because they were saved. They said that once they found Jesus as their Lord, they could no longer sin. "Have you found God?" or, "Have you found Jesus?" Were phrases individuals used a lot back then. I had a guy turn my stereo off while some early Springsteen was playing, saying, "Lies, it's all lies!" I think, looking back, he had probably been "smoking" before he got there. This was part of my experience, which I figured was a part of the times- but was in part responsible for my realization that it just wasn't for me.
With so many individual denominations, one can't really say without a lot of research, about their view of OSAS, but that was my experience of these people. After all these years, I'd say it's possible that groups of people, especially if there were so many in my little corner of the world, might feel that way.
No sense in disgusting this any future. Go ahead and sin all you want, never set foot in a church, never pray, deny God, because you’re still going to heaven because you were “saved” when you were 20. Lord, help us.
Not sure what that was meant to impart. It surely didn’t answer the question I posited and thus was immaterial to the topic.
Simply that even though you stated you were not aware of it, it is still possible that people do believe that way.
Have you ever read anywhere on any of these forums that any follower of Christ has ever indicated they can go sin with reckless abandon??
A follower of Christ does His will...because we love Him...because He has died on the cross for our sins and He freely offers that forgiveness to anyone who believes.
We cannot be good enough to get into Heaven or keep our way into Heaven....once we have believed Jesus and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, as Paul said in Romans 8, what can separate us from the love of God?
Still immaterial. "People" believe a lot of different ways. My statement was "I wasn’t aware that there was any church who declared OSAS as a doctrine that must be believed for salvation." How your flowing off onto some rabbit trail of what "some people" think is relevant to that is unclear to me and frankly seems a simple diversion.
No what I was politely trying to say was that just because one hasn't heard of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I was using an example from my own experience. Frankly it seems one was simply mindreading.
Seeing how you think you have to be good enough to keep, possibly earn, salvation, I’d like to know just how many and what type of good works one must do?
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Amen. And very well-stated! God bless you!
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