Posted on 02/22/2015 5:12:26 AM PST by RnMomof7
In his Revelation John does not depict the martyrs as unaware of the events on earth but wanting justice done.
1 Cor 3:15 and Heb 12:29. NEXT !!
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
C'mon I know you can read...No man gets burned...His bad works are destroyed by fire...
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Are you really that desperate??? There's nothing there about Christians burning...
You guys should leave the scriptures out of your defense of your religion...You just end up looking foolish...
Of course it does...Live people in that age, not dead people from this age...
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Smart boy...lol.
By the way Legatus, this is the first time I'm seeing you've come back to post again. Good to see you again!
I took up freeping for Lent lol
I'm always happy to be given the opportunity to spread this around. (To my co-religionists, doesn't this just blow the new rite out of the water? You may as well get used to it because it's the future of the Church.) It's from the text of the Mass, you'll find it in the prayers after the Consecration.
http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMinstructions.html
Ahem, may I suggest that they (the Church) merely borrowed the idea whole-cloth from Jewish tradition? (ahem, ahem??) In Judaism there is only purgatory of the soul, no permanent “hell.”
Of course it does...Live people in that age ...The age to come is not simply different in time but different in quality. Cf. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 2 ed., (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), "αἰῶν" 2b:
ὁ αἰῶν μέλλῶν ... opposed to the αἰῶν οὔτος both in time and quality, cf. Mt 12:32 [οὔτε ἐν τούτῳ τῷ αἰῶνι οὔτε ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι]; Eph 1:21 [ἐν τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ ἀλλὰ καὶ ἐν τῷ μέλλοντι] ...(bold emphasis added).
... doesn't this just blow the new rite out of the water?My dear brother in Christ, Eucharistic Prayer I of the ordinary form contains exactly the same prayer. (I am speaking of the Latin, naturally, not the English translation; I am fond of the older translations as well.)
R2z - “Which book of the Bible contains it?”
Legatus - “http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMinstructions.html";
Seems RCs do not rely heavily on the Holy Bible for much.
Read 2 Macc 12:39 ff. God bless you.
thank you....
Seems some people do not rely heavily on reading what's in front of their faces.
I was going to start citing all the Scripture that's used in the Mass but considering that the FIRST LINE before Mass even starts is "Thou shalt sprinkle me, O Lord, with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed; Thou shalt wash me, and I shall become whiter than snow" and you apparently didn't even make it that far, it's not worth my time.
Someone who was actually paying attention would have thought "hey! that's from the Bible maybe I'd be well served to keep reading"... then imagine the shock when they stumbled over "I saw water flowing from the right side of the temple; and all they to whom that water came were saved, and they shall say, alleluia" immediately following that.
And then the beautiful "Judge me, O God, and distinguish my cause from the nation that is not holy: deliver me from the unjust and deceitful man. For Thou, O God, art my strength: why hast Thou cast me off? and why do I go sorrowful whilst the enemy afflicteth me? Send forth Thy light and Thy truth: they have led me and brought me unto Thy holy hill, and into Thy tabernacles. And I will go in unto the Altar of God: unto God, Who giveth joy to my youth. I will praise Thee upon the harp, O God, my God: why art thou sad, O my soul? and why dost thou disquiet me? Hope thou in God, for I will yet praise Him: Who is the salvation of my countenance, and my God."
Nevermind that the whole of the Mass concludes with the entire first chapter of the Holy Gospel According to St. John, there's a prayer in there that isn't from the Bible, string 'em up!
But really, how often does one hear EPI used anymore? The fact that the rest of the surrounding rite has been stripped bare of all decoration... I mean why was it necessary to reduce the kyrie from three threefold repetitions to three doubles? What was the point of that?
What about the prayers at the foot of the altar, the offertory, the repetition of the confiteor (the very text of the confiteor for that matter), the Last Gospel. I could go on but I think the point is made.
All of these changes were supposed to produce generations of adult Catholics who knew the Faith and would change the world... how’s that working out for us anyhow?
Since Purgatory pertains to sanctification -- not justification -- I'll grant there's a false premise being interjected into the discussion.
For in contrast to Scripture, in which God justifies the unGodly by counting his faith as righteousness, while purifying his heart by faith by which he is regenerated,
But in the Catholic view, sanctification isn't imputed (nor is justification, but see prior comment). "Nothing unclean shall enter." (Rev. 21:27). In our view, "snow covered dungheaps" don't enter heaven. Only souls which are inherently righteous and clean enter. If the necessary cleansing isn't effected while the soul remains attached to the body, then God is merciful and provides that "final sanctification" (Purgatory) so that the justified soul can enter.
Other texts either refer to present chastisement . . .
Indeed. For example:
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons?—
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Heb. 12:4-11.
While this certainly encompasses earthly discipline, I see nothing in the text (or others like it) that indicate such is necessarily limited to our earthly sojourn.
and as justification is based one one's own holiness,
No, no, no, NO, NO!!! Strawman alert!! Justification is wrought by God's grace; we are justified by what God by his grace does through us. (But see first comment; Purgatory and justification are 2 distinct things).
In seeking to support this tradition with Scripture, RC invoke 2 Maccabees 12:43ff, but which only teaches praying and making offerings for the dead
I'll grant those verses are consonant with the idea of Purgatory, though not alone proving it. But, that said, the idea of an after-life purification is Jewish in origin. For example:
Gan Eden and Gehinnom
The place of spiritual reward for the righteous is often referred to in Hebrew as Gan Eden (GAHN ehy-DEHN) (the Garden of Eden). This is not the same place where Adam and Eve were; it is a place of spiritual perfection. Specific descriptions of it vary widely from one source to another. One source says that the peace that one feels when one experiences Shabbat properly is merely one-sixtieth of the pleasure of the afterlife. Other sources compare the bliss of the afterlife to the joy of sex or the warmth of a sunny day. Ultimately, though, the living can no more understand the nature of this place than the blind can understand color.
Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She'ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.
Only the utterly wicked do not ascend at the end of this period; their souls are punished for the entire 12 months. Sources differ on what happens at the end of those 12 months: some say that the wicked soul is utterly destroyed and ceases to exist while others say that the soul continues to exist in a state of consciousness of remorse. Judaism 101
And we find this same idea carried forward into the immediate post-Apostolic age:
"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him,'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35(A.D. 210)
"It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian of Carthage, To Antonianus, Epistle 51(55):20(A.D. 253)
And between the Jewish outlook and the view expressed in the Early Church we find the Apostles -- who were Jews. The similarity in viewpoint to me is not difficult to explain.
the EOs reject the purgatory of Rome
There are some differences of viewpoint, but the E.O. are in agreement with the essential notion of a temporary punishment for sin which is imposed in the afterlife. From The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory
When giving in this answer (June 14th), Bessarion explained the difference of the Greek and Latin doctrine on this subject. The Latins, he said, allow that now, and until the day of the last judgment, departed souls are purified by fire, and are thus liberated from their sins; so that, he who has sinned the most will be a longer time undergoing purification, whereas he whose sins are less will be absolved the sooner, with the aid of the Church; but in the future life they allow the eternal, and not the purgatorial fire. Thus the Latins receive both the temporal and the eternal fire, and call the first the purgatorial fire. On the other hand, the Greeks teach of one eternal fire alone, understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire. The Greeks also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss. But the Latins, agreeing with the Greeks in the first point, do not allow the last one, affirming that the souls of saints have already received their full heavenly reward.
* * *
To all this the Orthodox party gave a clear and satisfactory answer. [5] They remarked, that the words quoted from the book of Maccabees, and our Saviour's words, can only prove that some sins will be forgiven after death; but whether by means of punishment by fire, or by other means, nothing was known for certain. Besides, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of these two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once.
So the E.O. agree that there can be after-life forgiveness of sin, and that such is cleansed "by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity," and they agree with Catholics that such state is temporary. The E.O. objection is largely centered on the Latin notion of a temporary "purging fire." The Orthoodox relegate "fire" solely to the eternal fire of punishment.
Ask a stupid question...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.