5 questions and the 5 solas

The Cripplegate ^ | July 2, 2014 | Jesse Johnson

[billys kid]

It’s called a venial sin. I however do not want to triple it. I must seek confession which will tame my heart.
You make me laugh in that Jesus my Lord and Savior turned over the tables of the hypocrites who claimed they personally adhered to the Mosaic Law

[Mark17]

member of the INC

I'm not familiar with the acronym.

Iglesia ni Cristo, the Philippine Church of Christ, started by one Frlix Y Manalo. You can occassally have a discussion with the catholics, but it is next to impossible to have one with the INC members. I have known quite a few catholics to swim the Tiber in reverse, but I have only heard of ONE person, ever to leave the INC. I think are as hard core as Muzzies.

[CynicalBear]

>>So you have to have faith to be saved, do you? That's doing something, isn't it?<<

Nope, it's not. Faith is not my faith but is the faith of Christ given to me as a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Galatians 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.

Notice the difference in the wording of "we in Christ Jesus did believe" but it's by the faith of Christ. And yes the word is different in the Greek.

Man can't even boast about his faith. Our faith is not even our faith. God gives it to each in different measures. So no, man is not doing something. God is doing something through man.

[CynicalBear]

What “stranger sources” do you think I rely on? I rely on the words of scripture only with guidance from the Holy Spirit.

[CynicalBear]

What “stranger sources” do you think I rely on? I rely on the words of scripture only with guidance from the Holy Spirit.

[CynicalBear]

What “stranger sources” do you think I rely on? I rely on the words of scripture only with guidance from the Holy Spirit.

[Steelfish]

“Guidance from the Hoy Spirit” for you, but not for the early Church fathers who painstakingly sorted out and assembled the books you call scripture under Petrine authority?

[LearsFool]

Well that's not what you agreed to, but I'll oblige you anyway. :-)

James gives four examples to illustrate the faith-works connection, two positive and two negative. In one of the positive examples and one of the negative (the demons), the law is not involved at all. Therefore, his "works" are not works of law but of faith: "by works was faith made perfect", or complete, not barren, alive, not dead.

Now to Paul:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law...(for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them)"

What happens to those under law? When they break the law, they are found guilty according to the law they're under. Jews broke the Law of Moses. Gentiles broke the law they assented to, violating their consciences.

The only one who can be acquitted by the law is the man who has not broken the law. (I.e., who can find him guilty?) Is there such a man? "No, not one."

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin."

Why can no one be justified (acquitted) by works of the law? Because the law points out the crimes we've committed.

If we're going to be justified (found "not guilty"), it'll have to be on another basis than our law-keeping. Because if the Judge renders a verdict on that basis, the only verdict is "guilty as charged". ("we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin") But here's the good news:

"We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

Whew! Praise God, a way to be found righteous other than perfect law-keeping! Hope at last for us law-breakers!

Now we don't need to fret at having lost a reward (righteousness) that would've been owed to us ("as of debt" 4:4) if we had "worked", keeping the law perfectly. Instead we can rejoice at having the reward (righteousness) on another basis - not "working", but instead having faith.

And to illustrate his point of what he means by a righteousness without working, he describes the acquittal of the guilty man:

"Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin."

Righteousness without working = forgiveness of sin. Not "earning" anything. The opportunity to earn righteousness ("as of debt") was lost with our first sin. The only option remaining is - no, not to work (too late for that!) - but to plead guilty and throw ourselves on the mercy of the Court. Blessed be the Judge, Who offers us another way to be acquitted!

[billys kid]

O My God! I feel so sorry for you.

[LearsFool]

Oh, I don't think Jesus was mistaken about who does the believing:

"They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." - John 6:28-29

And I don't think the writer of Hebrews was mistaken about who does the believing and having faith either:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." - Hebrews 11:6

But maybe you think Paul was wrong about where faith comes from?

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Romans 10:9,10,17

[billys kid]

No, It will be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church who will follow Her Savior Out Lord Jesus Christ upon the Way of the Cross!

[Mark17]

How about polio? Any redemption there in your fantasy?

Cynical B, I have a cold. Do you think it will redeem me? No? Oh, I am heartbroken I thought it might be a feather in my cap, so I can be more acceptable to God. Now, I will have to just suffer in silence. 😄 And here I thought you were sympathetic to my plight. You are so heartless. 😄😇😃

Actually, I agree with you. Suffering is part of life. Evil scum bags in all walks of life, somtimes suffer, and they are not redeemed. Hitler suffered from what is thought to be Parkinson's disease. I hardly think he was redeemed. Keep telling the truth.

[billys kid]

What was the sight, prey tell?

[CynicalBear]

>>"by works was faith made perfect"<<

What kind of works? Works of the law. Works of faith? What?

It seems your loosing track of the initiation of my original post. The comment had been made by a Catholic that when Paul spoke of works he always meant "works of the law". Here's the original comment "Read all of Romans instead of proof-texting and you will discover that the "works of the law" that Paul is discussing are those of the law of Moses.". My point is that Paul is NOT always talking about the works of the law as shown below.

Romans 4:4 Now to the one who works (ἐργαζομένῳ - ergazomenō), wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work (ἐργαζομένῳ - ergazomenō) but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Nothing in that verse indicates he is speaking of "works of the law" but in fact is not or he would have said so as he did every other time he mentioned works.

[CynicalBear]

>>but not for the early Church fathers who painstakingly sorted out and assembled the books you call scripture under Petrine authority?<<

Read about the 7 "churches" listed in Revelation and see how reliable "early church" practices or beliefs and their leaders were already by 96AD. You want to put your faith in anyone after the apostles go right ahead. Evidence is that they weren't doing so well.

[Mark17]

I've heard plenty of Catholics talk about not sinning as if they can actually accomplish that.

I was never a self satisfied catholic like that. Maybe that is one reason I dumped it. I knew I could not work my way to Heaven. Praise God for that. Glad you saw the light too.

[CynicalBear]

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

That "faith" didn't come from man.

[CynicalBear]

:-)