Posted on 09/30/2014 11:41:47 AM PDT by NYer
I would like to see your scriptural source for that belief.
Faith is great when it’s faith in Christ. When it’s faith in some interpretation of Scripture that we can’t firmly establish.... well that’s a different horse entirely.
I would like to see your scriptural source for that belief.
I actually heard one guy describe the book as seeing a large event while standing on the sidewalk and describing what you see, then going up 10 stories in the building there and describing what you see, and then 50 stories, etc.
Though you are seeing the same event, you are noticing different things. You describe the tree in one place, and the forest in which it stands in another.
The thing is, we all, from time to time, infer things in the bible that are not really there. It’s why the early church believed we were the center of the universe and the sun revolved around the earth.
The more I read the bible, the more places I find where I have based my beliefs not on what it says, but on what I inferred it to mean on some previous reading. My beliefs change accordingly.
It is how I became a believer in annihilation as opposed to eternal, conscious suffering for those who die without Jesus. As I read the scriptures dealing with the subject (and there are a LOT of them), the picture became crystal clear.
I find nothing in Revelation to indicate that is not chronological. The sequence of events seems rather clear. What part of Revelation would you point to to indicate it is not?
So, how do you interpret verse 18 from Rev 11?:
“18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”
This verse says, not only “thy wrath is come” but also the “time of the dead, that they should be judged”. So, if you interpret this consistently with your interpretation of the language in Rev 6, it would seem you would have to place the day of judgement in this verse.
Also, since you seem to be asserting that Revelation is strictly chronological, then there must be at least two judgements of the dead, since we have another mentioned later in Rev 20:12. Doesn’t this amply demonstrate that the principles you are using to interpret the book must be flawed, if they generate such contradictions?
Please see my post #186 for an idea of the problems with a strictly chronological interpretation.
Rather than re-invent and document the wheel, I’ll try to google some that have already written up the concept. I’m certainly not the first to come to this conclusion.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=revelation+chronological+order&gws_rd=ssl
There you will get more perspectives and prayerfully shape your own viewpoint accordingly.
Thank you. I’ve found that the lions share of problems people have with what is in the bible is not actually what is in it. Rather, it is someones interpretation of what is in it that is, in fact, flawed, and creating the problems.
As I mature and continue studying, one of my goals is to identify my own faulty reasoning and eradicate it. I listen to His word on my 2.5 hour round trip commute most days and I can tell you that listening to it definitely gives a different perspective, clarifying the meaning when coupled with reading. And Prayer.
So you subscribe to a partial rapture, with some left to persevere. I am not trying to argue, I just focus more on the admonition to be ready more compelling than the interpretation of prophecy that seems so beyond our comprehension.
God bless you.
Verse 15 of Revelation 11 is the last trumpet. The seventh trumpet calls forth the seven angels with the seven bowls of God’s wrath. Truly the last of the trumpets had been sounded. It had been a succession of events progressively getting worse for those on earth. The sounding of that seventh trumpet meant the time had come. They would not have said that after any of the preceding trumpet sounds as the sounding of the seventh was still to come.
That’s your scriptural source for showing they are not in chronological order? I saw no scripture in that response.
I’ve read most if not all of them. You can’t make the first seal being opened after the the successive seals. You can’t make the seventh trumpet being sounded before the first.
That’s your scriptural source for showing they are not in chronological order? I saw no scripture in that response.
I’ve read most if not all of them. You can’t make the first seal being opened after the the successive seals. You can’t make the seventh trumpet being sounded before the first.
Keep in mind that the book is HIGHLY crammed with symbols. The churches are not really lampstands and the second death is not really a lake of fire.
And To get the FULL picture, there are plenty of scriptures in the old testament and the books of the new testament.
Discussions like this are good in that they force us to study and examine our understanding but we need to keep in mind that our salvation has been secured in Christ. If we have not included paganism or lost our zeal and become luke warm we have nothing to fear.
Your answer doesn’t speak at all to the contradiction I pointed out. Let me state the problem again for you:
You have said that “is come” means an event happens right there in that verse. Rev 11:18 uses the same phrase “is come”, and speaks of the judgement of the dead. So, by your own interpretive standard, you must place the day of judgement of the dead in Rev. 11.
You have also said that you think Revelation is chronological. Well, Rev. 20:12 also speaks of a judgement of the dead. If Revelation is chronological, then a judgement of the dead has already occurred by the time of chapter 20, and chapter 20 must speak of a second judgement of the dead!
So, you have two choices here. You can believe that Revelation is strictly chronological, and that “is come” specifies an event happening at that point in the narrative, in which case you must conclude that there are two judgement days. Or you can concede that your interpretive standards are somehow faulty, and go back to the drawing board.
Which do you choose?
I’m in agreement. Whenever discussing this subject I’m reminded of this scripture:
1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
I also take a strong perspective that we are to recognise the seasons and those of us who study will know this stuff when we see it.
This is one of those “shortstop” things for me. That is, like a shortstop, we practice for the line drive, the hard grounder, the double play, etc., so that when something does happen, we’re ready and know what to do.
Those virgins who allowed their lamps to burn out did not make it into the wedding. Not all in all of the "churches" were given the promise "I will keep you from the hour of testing,".
“As I mature and continue studying, one of my goals is to identify my own faulty reasoning and eradicate it.”
Amen to that! It was a big obstacle to me when I was younger, learning to swallow my pride and admit when I had made mistakes interpreting Scripture. However, if you can’t get over that hurdle, you’ll never get close to the truth.
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