Vanishing Catholics

hprweb ^ | December 23, 2013 | FR. WILLIAM P. CLARK, OMI

[redleghunter]

It’s the classic argument of the horse before the cart.

I don’t know how many times Christians have come on these threads to explain Faith is a verb, Faith is not static it is dynamic.

[redleghunter]

Do you believe the bible? Colossians: 124 OUR sins are not paid in full. He is our Redeemer our Atonement is through Him, we access his Grace thlough Faith AND Works.

Colossians 1:24 says no such thing.

2 Corinthians 5 says this:

21 He made the one who did not know sin to be sin on our behalf, in order that we could become the righteousness of God in him.

And, 1 Peter 2:

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his footsteps, 22 who did not commit sin, nor was deceit found in his mouth, 23 who when he was reviled, did not revile in return; when suffering, he did not threaten, but entrusted himself to the one who judges justly, 24 who himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we may die to sins and live to righteousness, by whose wounds you were healed. 25 For you were going astray like sheep, but you have turned back now to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.

And in 1 Peter 3:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, in order that he could bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit,

1 John 2:

My little children, I am writing these things to you in order that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one, 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[redleghunter]

Faith is action; Faith is dynamic not static. You must have Faith in the object of your belief before any actions make sense. If not then you would believe a Hindu following the commandments and Law has the same access than a Christian. We know this to not be true because Christ is the only way to the Father.

Christ is the only unblemished acceptable sacrifice. We cannot take our works which are blemished into the Holy of Holies.

The works we do as Christians are what is expected and are not salvific merits.

[redleghunter]

In summary, I reject 100% that Christianity started in the 15th century with Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, and Knox and that their theological descendants got it right.

You have a right to your opinion which I enjoyed reading and was well thought out. Where we differ is in 'time.' Time elapsed is your friend to justify centuries of tradition we cannot find the apostles emphasizing or even discussing in their written works. Time can also be an enemy of which Paul tells us this:

Acts 20:

24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Even in that short time of Paul's missionary journies did he see the leaven entering the loaf. I take careful note on what Paul emphasizes to the elders of Ephesus. And that is the Gospel of Grace.

Luther and Calvin? Mortal men as we are. They opened the door for all to examine the Written Words of God as the apostles delivered them and understood them.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I'm not saying there's ~no~ men. (Sorry if it sounded like that). It's that women predominate in the pews, and even more so in involvement: in movements, missions, and ministries.

God bless the KofC! We just need a lot more o' that!

[daniel1212]

OUR sins are not paid in full.

At least you blatantly admit the consequence of RC deception versus Scripture. For rather than being justified by interior goodness via sprinkling water, and then becoming good enough to enter glory thru purgatory, one is justified by faith being counted for righteousness by a faith that effects works of obedience.

As regards Christ failing to pay the full price for the forgiveness of sins,

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Colossians 2:13)

Those who believe are in Christ, and their sins, which they wish they did not do, do not separate them (yet they are warned about departing from the faith) but are forgiven upon repentant confession to God, because their sins have been atoned for.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

we access his Grace thlough Faith AND Works.

Actually, while in His grace God blesses obedience, what Scripture says as regards appropriating justification is,

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Romans 5:1-2)

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

Thus the mute or those on their deathbed can be saved, and thus the Lord saved Cornelius and company by "purifying their hearts by faith" before they were baptized. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:9)

However, while faith justifies, salvific faith effects the "obedience of faith," "things that accompany salvation," (Heb. 6:9) confessing the Lord Jesus in word and deed,

And because such works are faith in action, thus it can be said, as in contrasting true faith with inert faith, which James is doing in James 2 (while Paul is teaching what actually is counted for righteousness, justifying the unGodly), that a man is saved by works, as meaning the kind of faith that effects works.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10)

[CTrent1564]

aMorePerfectUnion:

Not sure you made a point other than saying you don’t agree with the Catholic Church and that it was there among the Fathers in the late 1st and 2nd century, sort of like a seed or small plant, but it was Catholic, and while it is lets say a larger Tree today, it in substance the same, only the accidents differ, and that that is an organic development of the Church From Christ to the Apostles to the Fathers of the Church in conjunction with all the Major councils of the Church till today.

So that is my point and it remains my point.

[roamer_1]

[Note, I am Singing, not yelling, for the record]

It is hard to tell the difference ; )

[redleghunter]

Born again and born of the Spirit, appears in more than John chapter 3. Here are a few other references, to include the first where Cornelius and household received the Holy Spirit before baptism:

Acts 10:

43 To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who were listening to the message. 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.

John 3 (full context of Born Again):

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

1 Peter 1:

13 Therefore, when you have prepared your minds for action by being self-controlled, put your hope completely in the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former desires you used to conform to in your ignorance, 15 but as the one who called you is holy, you yourselves be holy in all your conduct, 16 for it is written, “You will be holy, because I am holy.” 17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves with fear during the time of your temporary residence, 18 because you know that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your ancestors not with perishable things like silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb 20 who was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has been revealed in these last times for you 21 who through him are believing in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for sincere brotherly love, love one another fervently from the heart, 23 because you have been born again, not from perishable seed but imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For “all flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flower of the grass. The grass withers and the flower falls off, 25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word that has been proclaimed to you.

Galatians 4:

28 But you, brothers, are children of the promise, just as Isaac. 29 But just as at that time the child born according to human descent persecuted the child born according to the Spirit, so also now.

Romans 8:

5 For those who are living according to the flesh are intent on the things of the flesh, but those who are living according to the Spirit are intent on the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.

1 John 3:

9 Everyone who is fathered by God does not practice sin, because his seed resides in him, and he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are evident: everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, namely, the one who does not love his brother.

John 1:

11 He came to his own things, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of God.

[metmom]

Yes. Eve. What about the rest of us?

WE, all the rest of us, are now slaves to sin because of the sin of Adam and Eve.

We do not have the kind of free will that Adam and Eve had because they were sinless. We were born with a sin nature that enslaves us, a handicap they did not have.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Let me try to be more clear. I objected to your argument that it was an unbroken chain of identical belief from Christ to today. It is not. If you want to believe otherwise, you are believing a Roman Sanitized version of history. Your call.

[redleghunter]

Romans 8:

23 Not only this, but we ourselves also, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves while we await eagerly our adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we were saved, but hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we await it eagerly with patient endurance. 26 And likewise also, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as one ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with unexpressed groanings. 27 And the one who searches our hearts knows what the mindset of the Spirit is, because he intercedes on behalf of the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose, 29 because those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined, these he also called, and those whom he called, these he also justified, and those whom he justified, these he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, together with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring charges against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies. 34 Who is the one who condemns? Christ is the one who died, and more than that, who was raised, who is also at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will affliction or distress or persecution or hunger or lack of sufficient clothing or danger or the sword? 36 Just as it is written,

“On account of you we are being put to death the whole day long; we are considered as sheep for slaughter.”

37 No, but in all these things we prevail completely through the one who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[redleghunter]

We both agree that Grace is necessary for Salvation.

I would say that is like saying a heart is necessary for a human to live.

Romans 11:

6 But if by grace, it is no longer by works, for otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

[redleghunter]

Then read Peter 3:21 and meditate on baptism.

No one really looks at the verses prior to and after 1 Peter 3:21. Here they are:

1 Peter 3:21:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

[redleghunter]

Matthew 7:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Then Jesus says this in the John 6:

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

[redleghunter]

The water is necessary plus the faith. We agree to disagree, sort of - the water is the created (look at Genesis) method that the Lord uses. Baptism is a must to get into the Kingdom - Faith + water- Faith alone won’t do it - Why? Because we are flesh and not spirit alone - God made us flesh and we need an actual element (Genesis again) If we were purely spiritual beings - angels, we would not need the actual water.

I don't think most here would downplay baptism. Where we probably disagree is the scriptural evidence is those who believe, have faith get down in the water. The water does not evoke the person to believe, but the believer...faith in action goes in the water to proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

It seems to be a problem with some separating the two faith and baptism, when for the NT church, believers were baptized and therefore you cannot separate the belief from the action. That's how I see it played out in Acts several times. People who believed were baptized. IMHO, you cannot separate the two-faith and baptism, because one (faith) leads to the other (baptism).

[redleghunter]

No problems my FRiend, the autocorrect gets me from time to time. I believe the answer to “nothing impure can enter” goes back to the people who were washing their robes in Christ’s Blood.

[redleghunter]

If Christ had a blood line though his brothers we would know it - the geneologists would have figured it out and it would be out there

To be perfectly honest, I was raised and educated for many years a Roman Catholic. I don't like getting involved in debates about Mary. Call me old fashioned but I would not debate about my best friend's mom nor even a stranger's mom. So, I usually leave it alone and just present the scriptures and let folks decide on their own. Mary is my Savior and Lord's earthly mother. I am not going to drag His mom into a debate. So you will not get any "Yo mama" debate from me:)

But as you mentioned a blood line of some sort. I just read a paper on dating Revelation and one of the interesting tidbits in the paper was a historical note that Trajan (late first century Roman emperor) called for the "blood relatives" of Jesus Christ from James line. He saw them as potential rivals in a potential uprising. I forget which early Christian historian that was quoted from, but if interested I can find it.

[daniel1212]

Great God!

[NKP_Vet]

I still like Jimmy Swaggart and still listen to him. Have to say on top of false teachings about the Catholic Church. Swaggart’s positions on abortion, homosexual “marriage” and a host of other social teachings are identical to the Catholic Church. Catholics were preaching the evils of abortion before most protestants got on board. Protestants were lukewarm on abortion after Roe v. Wade. It’s absolutely great that the majority of protestant faiths took a 190 turn on abortion. Praise God.