Posted on 12/23/2013 7:16:44 PM PST by Uri’el-2012
The seals are most of the relevant history of this world since the apostles died, and up to when we are caught up.
They are an overview of those events that have occurred since Yeshua took his seat at the right hand of the Father.
I need to sit on the porch with you for a few days.. :)
I see the same thing, roughly... The thing that lead me out of dispensationalism (which I do agree with in part) is the idea that the Prophecy stopped cold-stone dead for more than two thousand years. When one understands that it's been ticking right along like the best of Swiss watches opens one to discover all that has gone unnoticed during all the centuries of replacement theology.
I asked if you saw the birth pains of Matthew 24 as the seal judgments. Was that a “yes” you gave me in the last post?:)
I asked the question because the Eastern Orthodox have a very similar interpretation.
>> “You’ve got to read the front of the Book. That is where you will find these things defined.” <<
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I agree that is the best place to get up to speed, they are also called out in the NT by Yeshua, and by Paul in several of his epistles, and Peter also give us some help.
The problem is that we’ve been fed so many false interpretations by our Dispy/Pre-Trib teachers and pastors that our eyes are colored to misinterpret the words.
Sorry, yes they are the same events spoken in a different style.
But the seals are not judgements, they are just classes of men’s evil works.
Interesting perspective with regards to how replacement theology has stifled for centuries a clear literal look at prophecy. It makes things quite easy, and incorrect to “insert church here where Israel is mentioned.”
ES, for the first five seals to be a gradual historical march since Chirst Sat at the Right Hand of The Father, would that not mean 3.5 “days” of the 7th week was spread over the centuries?
yeah, I know - but you can't see it if you are not looking for it. When YHWH says He will give the covenant to 'not my people', it means gentiles'... unless one has spent some time in Hosea. I went twenty years before I finally caught on.
The problem is that we’ve been fed so many false interpretations by our Dispy/Pre-Trib teachers and pastors that our eyes are colored to misinterpret the words.
*shrugs* They ain't doing as bad as the Romans and Protestants who wallow even yet in Replacement Theology and Preterism. All they need is a little push to understand 'times and seasons (moedim)' instead of dispensations. Then it all falls together in a rush - At least it did for me. : )
The seals are broken by Christ.
Living amongst the Gentiles...That's what I said...
I would love to see the scripture backing for that assertion! Here is the mystery explained, in Paul's own writing:
Ephesian 3:3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
So you are asserting that this passage (John 6:35-58) was intended only for the Jews living at the time of Jesus who could actually cast their eyes upon his physical body?
Explain how David could say this: Psalm 25:15 My eyes are ever on the Lord
or how the writer of Hebrews could implore us to "...fix our eyes upon Jesus..."(Hebrews 12:2)
It is figurative, as in behold, understand, realize, see it in your mind, etc. As clarified by the subsequent statement:
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:
and the antecedent
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Salvation is by belief, not impression on the visual cortex. In fact, Jesus scolded Thomas for having to see to believe
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
You quoted John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The point of this passage is that no one can be saved unless God gives them understanding in their heart to recognize Jesus.
This is shown in John 6:45, which says we have to hear first, and then understand after God reveals it in our heart, and has nothing to do with being schooled in the Old Testament. Further clarification of this is seen in Matthew 16:
15 ...But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
and here in 1 Cor 12:2
...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
or even in John 6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
and finally in Acts 16
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
15 And when she was baptized...
The point is, NO ONE is saved unless God gives them understanding!
Completely unbiblical assertion. The 144,000 are mentioned twice in scripture, Rev 7:1-8, and Rev 14:1-5. They are never called ministers, preachers, evangelists or any other such descriptors. In fact, according to Rev 14, they are in Heaven, singing a new song before the throne and following the Lamb!
The whole idea of them being preachers is to explain the great multitude that come out of the tribulation in Rev 7:9-17. Since pre-tribbers believe the church was taken off the earth, these that come out of the tribulation must have been saved during the tribulation, and thus they would need someone to preach to them, and presto! However, there is no reference to ANYONE being saved during the tribulation, in fact Reveleation teaches the exact opposite! Regarding the Beast (the AntiChrist)
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
I don't do Greek or Hebrew but I am am pretty good at copy and paste...
Gentile-Greek
G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
In Greek, we have a bunch of non Jewish pagans...
Gentile-Hebrew
H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
No hint of any covenant/non covenant people there in the Hebrew...So that eliminates the in/out covenant problelm...
There is only Covenant and non-covenant (gentile), and nothing else.
I agree with that...The 'church' is not a covenant (agreement)...It is a free gift, to make Israel jealous
... And since the new covenant is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel, and the gentiles are inherited by them (adopted),
Israel doesn't adopt anyone...It is Jesus who is doing the adopting...And Jesus doesn't adopt us into Israel...Jesus adopts us into Him...
Rom_3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Redemption is in Christ, not in Israel...
Rom_12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
The 'body' is not Israel...The 'body' is Jesus Christ...Saved Jews get into the body just as saved Gentiles are adopted into the body...
Eph_3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Fellowheirs...Of the 'head' of that body, not fellowheirs of Israel...
Gal_6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
You'll then have to show me where the House of Israel was rejected. The House of Judah, no doubt. But the House of Israel (lo ammi, Not my People) are a different story altogether.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Israel along with Judah was rejected, but not forever...
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Not just living among gentiles; they were gentiles (Goyim = out of covenant)
In Macedonia the Danites were the majority population.
The seals are broken to reveal what is written on the scroll, which is what is about to occur among the men on Earth.
IOW it is prophecy of the course of human events.
>> “would that not mean 3.5 “days” of the 7th week was spread over the centuries?” <<
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No, they do not represent the first days of the 70th week, they are prophecies of the events between the end of apostolic ministry and the resumption of Daniel’s chronology.
Jimmy, until Yeshua died, The House of Israel was not eligible under Torah to find new faith through the grace of Yehova.
Torah says that if a man divorce a woman, she cannot marry another unless her husband is dead.
Yeshua’s death released the House of Israel to be remarried under Torah.
Torah governs all things in the kingdom of Yehova.
Since as Yeshua stated in his ministry, he came only for his lost sheep of the House of Israel, this was a great mystery both on Earth, and among his angels.
Interesting theory, but does not seem to coincide with this verse:
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
Regarding what the Angels were interested to learn, Peter seems to indicate the subject they desired to understand was the suffering of the Christ and the Gospel, to wit:
1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
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