When is the Rapture ?

Jesus is coming 2016 ^ | current | Jesus is coming 2016

[redleghunter]

That may be a bit strong, but it could thin out the herd a bit. As believers our trust and faith is in the shed Blood of Christ and every Word He spoke. So when folks ask me about the rapture I usually tell them I am an Upper Room Discourse type. All we need to know are in the first few verses of John 14.

I also respect the principle that doctrines should not rest on one or a few verses. So I am not “dogmatic” on a pre trib rapture. I am dogmatic on a rapture happening, just not on the timing.

[redleghunter]

I agree. But I think Tim LaHaye should reimburse everyone who bought his fiction series:) Just adding levity:)

[mitch5501]

Only read a portion of one of them...meh.

From an earlier post of yours...

"Frankly the “he” has generated much debate.

Hasn't it just!From an earlier post of mine..."When salt is removed meat quickly decays and becomes poisonous to those who eat it."

If the "salt of the earth" is removed,if that which restrains decay is removed,if that which preserves is taken out of the way,the world will have what it wants and will reap the consequences of getting what it wants.

Just throwing out some thoughts for the discussion.

[jimmyray]

QUOTE from 240: There is no mention of the church (the body of Christ) after Revelation 4.

For what is worth, there is no mention of "the church" in chapters 1-3 either. Rather, 7 individual churches in the province of Asia are mentioned.

Incidentally, these churches are mentioned again in Rev 22:16, which after "Revelation 4". :)

[jimmyray]

QUOTE from 240: There is no mention of the church (the body of Christ) after Revelation 4.

Interestingly enough, the saints (gr hagios) are mentioned 13 times in Revelation, and is never preceded by the term "tribulation" as a qualifier. Saints are believers in Christ, to wit:

1 Cor 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

Paul uses the term church and saints interchangeably in both letter's greetings, eg 1 Cor 1:2, 2 Cor 1:1. Thus, it is safe to conclude that the saints referred to in Rev 5 onward are saved by faith in Christ, and are part of the church.

The only reason to call the saints in Rev 5 onward "tribulation saints" not part of the church, is the starting premise that the church has already been raptured. However, this is not supported by any text in Revelation (or anywhere in the Bible), and is forced onto the scripture.

Please don't respond with "...you don't understand prophecy...", but rather with scriptural proof of you assertions, much as I have done repeatedly in this exchange. You are right, I don't understand the "prophecy" you espouse, for it is not scriptural.

[redleghunter]

If the "salt of the earth" is removed,if that which restrains decay is removed,if that which preserves is taken out of the way,the world will have what it wants and will reap the consequences of getting what it wants.

Thanks and I have considered the above in the past. It is thought provoking. With regards to "he" and the debate it generates...Paul spoke in such clear terms and then we get to the "he" and it seems Paul goes cyrptic on us at that point. Don't know, maybe not seeing it, but good believers seem to have differing opinions and how one defines "he" pushes towards a particular view.

Not knowing how much has been offered in the way of 2 Thessalonians 2, I will paste the entire chapter in the KJV so maybe we can go verse by verse and work on this a bit:

2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

[Cvengr]

The only reason to call the saints in Rev 5 onward "tribulation saints" not part of the church, is the starting premise that the church has already been raptured. However, this is not supported by any text in Revelation (or anywhere in the Bible), and is forced onto the scripture.

Perhaps a better phrasing is that one interpretation of Scriptural Prophetic events allows for the removal of the Church at the Rapture prior to the Great Tribulation. Even with the Church and Holy Spirit removed, there are still believers during the Great Tribulation period, also known as 'tribulation saints'.

While there might not be a specific verse stating such, it still is a consistent eschatology,

[jimmyray]

Yes, it is consistent with pre-trib escatology.

However, there is not a single verse in the bible that clearly teaches that idea, and multiple that say the exact opposite.

The bigger problem, though, is that if the Holy Spirit is gone, how will people come to believe in Jesus. For no one comes unto Jesus unless the Father first draw him.

As one explores pre-trib, one constantly finds issues like this, and has to re-intepret scriptures contrary to there face value meaning.

[M Kehoe]

The Rapture of the Church will take place Tuesday April 15th 2014 @0030 hrs Zulu.

Did anyone predict that date and time? What happens if I "win?"

5.56mm

[editor-surveyor]

>> “There will also be those who become believers after the rapture who are referred to as tribulation saints but they will be killed for their belief.” <<

.
Could you show us a scripture to support that personal theory?

In the trib, his believers will primarily be “The Woman,” and those that have attached themselves to her who are specifically mentioned in the Revelation. I won’t deny that there could be some of those that you have hypothesized, but I don’t see them mentioned as a group anywhere.

[editor-surveyor]

>> Did anyone predict that date and time? What happens if I “win?” <<

.
The whole of prophecy crashes into the abyss in failure, other than that, probably nothing.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “The bigger problem, though, is that if the Holy Spirit is gone, how will people come to believe in Jesus. For no one comes unto Jesus unless the Father first draw him.” <<

.
Amen!

You have provided a solid answer to a post to which I just replied. I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.” <<

.
Bing! - “The Woman” who is taken to the temporary hiding place at the beginning of the trib (Rev 12:14-17) is the only significant change that Paul could be talking about, and that will likely be a substantial portion of the saints.

I had always taken that as occurring after the revealing of the Abomination, but I can’t see where it is clear cut.

Yeshua stated that those he came for were “The lost sheep of the House of Israel” which are the bulk of “the Woman.”

[Uri’el-2012]

The Rapture of the Church will take place Tuesday April
15th 2014 @0030 hrs Zulu.
Did anyone predict that date and time? What happens if I "win?"

5.56mm

I think that is Passover.

That is when the chosen people
were removed from
the world of sin and on
their way to the promised land.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[redleghunter]

Well what do we all agree on:) I am sure we all see the tribulation and Second Coming of Jesus Christ as still future. So I guess there are no preterists among us.

[editor-surveyor]

Safe guess.

[roamer_1]

With regards to "he" and the debate it generates...Paul spoke in such clear terms and then we get to the "he" and it seems Paul goes cyrptic on us at that point.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Look at the word 'withholdeth' and 'letteth'.

kat-ekh'-o
From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.

(e-Sword: Strong's Concordance)

to wit:

And now ye know who hangs on that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who hangs on now, until he be taken out of the way.

[redleghunter]

The bigger problem, though, is that if the Holy Spirit is gone, how will people come to believe in Jesus. For no one comes unto Jesus unless the Father first draw him.

A valid point as Jesus Christ mentions in John 16:

7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

And Paul has this from Romans 8:

Romans 8:

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

The theory of the Holy Spirit as not acting on believers during the tribulation came from a footnote commentary in the original Schoefield Bible. I believe it has since been removed from the footnotes. I can verify later when I have access to my library. However, it seems most pre-trib dispensationalist put the "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."(KJV); and "only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."(NKJV and NASB); the "he" as the church.

As I have stated to come to a CERTAIN conclusion on "he who now restrains" (NKJV and NASB) without other scriptural proofs is poor theology. Meaning if we don't know for sure, we cannot say we are CERTAIN.

The main thrust of a pre-trib rapture (or translating or caught up) are the following:

-the "he who now restrains" being the church-which there are differing opinions on as well.

-the verses ref "the wrath to come."-which there are differing opinions on as well

-the difference between "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" and the Day of the Lord. One being the gathering of the bride of Christ His Church and the other the Day of the Lord where He judges the earth.--This is usually disputed by amils, but I gather we all see a rapture but differ on its timing of before, during or after the tribulation.

That is how I see the points of contention between the varying rapture positions. I am sure an amillennialist would disagree with all of us given they do not see a literal tribulation nor a literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ on earth.

[redleghunter]

You see Revelation 12 ref “The Woman” as at the beginning of the tribulation before the first seal is broken? Please explain.

[redleghunter]

Love the tag line.