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Locked on 12/26/2013 5:28:25 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 12/22/2013 7:28:20 AM PST by DouglasKC
No, you don’t.
Tbe vast preponderance of scriptures testify that Jesus is the Son of God and not equal to God. (”You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I——Jesus himself saying he is less than the Father.
Are you calling Jesus a Liar?
But because you are wrong and don’t want to admit you are wrong, you turn them on their head.
You don’t stick with scriptures at all. You stick with the brainwashing you got in Church, and then CLAIM you are sticking with scriptures.
Thanks...it is sad to see many “Christians” cling onto a brainwashing by their leaders..cling on for dear life! Because their egos just will not allow them to admit that they have been snookered! But it was all foretold...apostasy is here and strong.
Most students of theology have some degree of discernment when their perspectives conflict with the majority of Christian denominations, especially multiple Councils and basic statements of faith developed and accepted over millennia.
That's what the Trinity is all about...I know what the scripture says about Jesus being separate...I also know what the scripture says about the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Father being one...
Unlike you, I choose to believe all of it, not just some of it...That you can't get your mind around that, the bible is wrong??? God didn't guarantee we would understand it...But he told us to believe it...I have no problem with that...
I was expecting such a comment. So now scriptures are not enough? What do your personal revelations tell you what happens when they contradict Scriptures? In your view is the Holy Spirit God? Or are you of the "Oneness" mind where the Father indwelled The Son Jesus Christ, and then became the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Meaning, do you see there is One God but 'manifested' three ways throughout history? I ask because that is the impression I am getting by your posts and others who deny the Son of God is Truly God and Truly man.
I will ask again, since no seems to want to answer it....Is Jesus Christ the Son of God in your belief a "demigod"? Is Jesus Christ the Son of God a created Being or did He always exist with the Father?
Finally, why did Thomas say "My Lord and my God!" instead of "My Lord and my Son of God" or "My Lord and my heavenly 'god'"? or "My Lord and my Son of God begotten of Father." Those are the only other possibilities given your "Jesus is not God" hermeneutics. Which would then have to be applied to all instances of "theos" and "elohim" in the Bible; which then makes other passages and verses make no sense.
And I truly apologize for asking so many questions, but to be honest, I have to. Why? Because you and other posters who deny Jesus Christ the Son of God is Truly God and Truly man, have not presented your reasoned and developed side of the argument. You all drop in a thread say "Jesus is not God, why can't you see that" and then proceed to not read opposing views and sources and keep with the same mantra "Jesus is not God" thinking if you say it long enough, it might stick. Well it is not sticking. The "Great I AM" statements from Jesus Christ are clear enough and can stand on their own.
That is quite humorous considering you thought Thomas was speaking God's Name in vain! "Hey Jesus you back from the dead? omg...
Yeah right, nice one. Post 276 presenting nothing other than in the inner rooms people receive revelations that contradict the Gospel preached by the apostles.
I find it interesting that simple and lengthy statements in Scripture, which may be used by any faithful believer to understand the issue, are simply ignored by the anti-Trinity attack.
When Iscool presented so much evidence in post 265, why not simply consider it through faith in Christ? (rhetorical, no need to answer, but post 265 is strongly recommended for study.)
Solid theology is based on multiple scripture proofs.
Then again, putting statements such as "are you calling Jesus a liar?" evokes you have nothing further to present, and we have yet to see a coherent argument from your side of the discussion.
A true statement. As our good pal CB says "scripture interprets scripture." I think that was him who said that:)
Scripture does interpret scripture. And you had better find two or more passages that corroborate a belief and make sure that understanding doesn’t contradict something else in scripture. If what you believe seems to contradict other teachings in scripture you better be looking for a different understanding of the scripture you thought you understood.
I’ve been waiting for those answers as well.
There were no wiser words kind Sir. That is why if we do not see Jesus Christ as Truly God and Truly man, none of the passages or verses come out clear.
Please tell which two scriptures Peter consulted when he realized that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God?
I can see what you all are doing. Even when Scriptural truths are presented that Jesus was not God (even the words out of his own mouth) you deny them. You state no proofs are being presented when in fact they are.
I don’t think most of you are interested in the Truth. You are interested in proving how right you are, even when you are very wrong.
Those who want to know the Truth will know it. And will not be confused by those who pass off man-made doctrines as if they were from God.
God said Jesus is his Son. What could be clearer than that?
There are very few scriptures which indicate Jesus was God.
***Well, since you won’t click on the link provided, here’s the evidence disproving your assertion.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3104583/posts
Did Jesus Claim to be God?
http://knowwhatyoubelieve.com/index.php ^ | 2013 | Richard Helsby
Posted on Mon 23 Dec 2013 05:14:49 AM PST by Kevmo
Did Jesus Claim to be God?
Summary
Evidence in addition to his claims in the New Testament
The concept of Jesus as divine existed within at least 10 to 20 years of his crucifixion, and therefore likely to have been asserted by Jesus himself. The claims of Jesus to be God make sense of his trial and crucifixion i.e. blasphemy The early enemies of Christ would have declared that Jesus never made such claim A parallel movement, that claimed Jesus as merely a good teacher, would have emerged alongside Christianity
Jesus’ use of Divine Titles Yahweh - claiming the sacred Old Testament name for God. Yahweh means “He who is” or “I am” Son of God - claiming to be of the same nature as God, co-equal and co-eternal with God Son of Man - claiming to be the Messiah / King / Deliverer of the Jews. Used to proclaim his divine identity Lord - claiming to be “Adonai” - a term applied to God in the Old Testament Abba - referred to God as father - uniquely using the familiar word of closest intimacy People responded to these claims by wanting to kill Jesus as this was the punishment required for blasphemy
Additional claims to be God
· To be pre-existent “before Abraham was born, I am!” John 8:58 · To be omnipresent “and surely I am with you always” Matthew 28:20 · To be omniscient “you know all things … You believe at last!” John 16:30 · To be omnipotent “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” Matthew 28:18 · Should be worshipped “And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin…” Mark 9:42 · Divine authority To forgive sins , To have authority over the laws of the Sabbath, That the elect and angels are his, To be able to give authority over evil to others, To have authority over all people · Word will outlast time “my words will never pass away” Mark 13:31 · To be sinless “Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?” John 8:46 · That all God has is his “All I have is yours, and all you have is mine” - said praying to God - John 17:10 · To give freedom “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed” John 8:36 · To send prophets “Therefore I am sending you prophets” Matthew 23:34 · To deserve highest loyalty “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me” Mt 10:37 · To be equal with God that a response to him is the same as a response to God. John 15:23 that he is to be honoured to the same extent as God is honoured. John 5:22 that to see him is to see God. John 14:9 that to know him is to know God. John 8:19 that him coming to the Jewish people was the same as God being there. Luke 19:43 that he operates with and to the same extent as God. John 5:17 that he is directly equal with God. John 10:30-39 · To be able to raise himself from the dead “I lay down my life — only to take it up again... I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” John 10:17,18 That people’s eternal destiny depends on their response to him. Mathew 7:21-23, John 8:24
The Importance of the Issue
This issue is crucially important for at least five reasons
The divinity of Christ is the most distinctively Christian belief or doctrine of them all. A Christian is most essentially defined as one who believes that Jesus was God. And no other religion has a doctrine that is even similar. Buddhists do not believe that Buddha was God and Muslims do not believe that Muhammad was God. [1 p. 151]
This doctrine works like a skeleton key, unlocking all the other doctrinal doors of Christianity. Christians believe each of their many doctrines not because they have reasoned their own way to them, but on the divine authority of the One who taught them, as recorded in the Bible and transmitted by the church. If Jesus Christ was only human, he could have made mistakes. Thus, anyone who wants to dissent from any of Christ’s unpopular teachings will want to deny his divinity. And there are bound to be things in his teachings that each of us finds offensive - if we look at the totality of those teachings rather than confining ourselves to comfortable and familiar ones. [1 p. 152]
If Christ is divine, then the incarnation (God taking on human form) is the most important event in history. It is the hinge of history. It changes everything. If Jesus Christ is God, then when he died on the cross, he provided a means for God and humans to be reconciled. No event in history could be more important to every person on earth than that. [1 p. 152]
It has tremendous implications for us now. For if Jesus Christ is God, then, since he is omnipotent and present right now, he can transform you and your life right now as nothing and no one else possibly can. [1 p. 152]
If Christ is divine, he has right to our entire lives, including our inner life and out thoughts. If Christ is divine, our absolute obligation is to believe everything he says and obey everything he commands. [1 p. 152]
The difficulty of this issue
Christians ought to realise how difficult, how scandalous, how objectionable, how apparently unbelievable and absurd this doctrine is bound to appear to others. [1]
The difficulty is a double one. First, there is the immediate, instinctive, intuitive shock. Second, on the reflective, rational level this claim seems absurd. It is the claim of a man who came from a woman’s womb, grew from a baby, got hungry and tired and angry, suffered and died – to be divine! It is not only intuitively shocking, but it also seems logically self-contradictory. [1 p. 153]
Before we attempt to address these difficulties and the validity of Christ’s claim to be God, we need to establish that he did indeed make such a claim. Many suggest that Jesus either never made any claims to deity; that His claims were altered by His biased followers; or, that His claims were misunderstood by His ignorant followers. [15] Did Jesus make any claims to deity?
When we examine the New Testament documents, we find that Jesus makes numerous claims to deity - to be God. The sceptics who doubt this, generally doubt the accuracy and credibility of the documents themselves, but as we have shown in the previous sections, the New Testament documents are historical reliable. They more than satisfactorily pass each of the tests of historicity and are therefore reliable in their accounts of the life of Jesus.
It may also be worth noting a few additional points that support the fact that Jesus did make claims to deity.
There is ample indication that the early church based its doctrine on things Jesus said and did, including His claims to divinity, rather than inventing what He said and did after formulating the doctrines. [15]
Those that deny Jesus made any extraordinary personal claims face the very severe problem of explaining how it is that the worship of Jesus as Lord and God came about at all in the early church. [16] This is even more problematic when we realize that within twenty years of the crucifixion a full-blown Christology (theory/doctrine) proclaiming Jesus as God incarnate (God in human form) existed. How does one explain this worship by monotheistic Jews of one of their countrymen as God incarnate, apart from the claims of Jesus himself? [15]
The oldest liturgical prayer recorded, in 1 Corinthians 16:22, is dated at around 55 AD. It refers to Jesus as Lord - a divine title reserved for God. Paul’s letters, written between 49 and 65 AD exhibit the same fully evolved Christology; logically, he must have gotten it from sometime earlier than 49 AD. Paul cites creeds, hymns and sayings of Jesus that must have been come from earlier (Romans 1:3-4; 1 Corinthians 11:23; Colossians. 1:15-16; Philippians. 2:6-11; 1 Timothy. 3:16; 2 Timothy. 2:8). These items translate easily into Aramaic and show features of Hebrew poetry and thought-forms, which allows us to trace their origins to Jesus’ first followers in Judea, between 33 and 48 AD. [15]
The oldest Christian document shows Paul repeatedly calling Jesus ‘Christ’ (the title “Christ” is a Greek equivalent to the Jewish term “Messiah” - the king and deliverer / saviour expected by the Jewish people). He does this in a way that suggests that, within twenty years of Jesus’ death and resurrection, this comprehensive title for Jesus’ identity and powers was simply taken for granted by Paul and his readers. The title had almost become Jesus’ second (personal) name (1 Thessalonians 1:1, 3; 5:23, 28). In his letters Paul uses ‘Christ’ 270 times but never considers it necessary to argue explicitly that Jesus is ‘the Christ’ whom Israel expected. [15]
All of this leads to the inevitable conclusion that the concept of Jesus as divine quite definitely existed within, at the very least, a decade of the crucifixion, and therefore, was likely to have been asserted before His death by Jesus Himself, as is recorded in the Gospels. [15]
The claims of Jesus to be God make sense of his trial and crucifixion.[1 p. 163]
The Jewish sensitivity to blasphemy was unique; no one else would so fanatically insist on death as punishment for claiming divinity. Throughout the Roman world, the prevailing attitude towards the gods was “the more, the merrier”. [1 p. 163]
The political excuse that he was Caesar’s rival was a lie trumped up to justify his execution, since Roman law did not recognize blasphemy as ground for execution and the Jews had no legal power to enforce their own religious laws of capital punishment under Roman rule. [1 p. 164]
The enemies of Christianity would have declared that Jesus never made such claims [15]
If Jesus never claimed to be divine, and never claimed it in the sense that is indicated in the Gospels, it is reasonable to expect that the enemies of Christianity and the early church would have declared that Jesus never made such claims, or that he was misunderstood. Some did indeed do this, but wrote quite some time after the fact. There is no record contemporary or closely contemporary with Jesus (first century AD) that indicates that He never made any special claims for Himself, or that the church invented the claims. Even after that time, however, the major sceptics of the first several centuries never argued this point. The Jesus-never-claimed-divinity argument had not been advanced by sceptics of the time, and if it was used, perhaps by some sceptic whose works we have totally lost, it was so easily dismissed or so lacked adequate credibility that it could not be used by the best anti-Christian sceptics. [15]
A parallel movement, that acclaimed Jesus as merely a good teacher, would have emerged alongside Christianity. [15]
As it is, there are no existing texts from the first century, or even from the century thereafter, that represent Jesus as claiming to be only human or only a prophet. He is always portrayed as making exalted claims to a super-human status. [15] Was Jesus Misunderstood?
What about the idea that Jesus did say some or all of the things the Gospels attribute to Him, but that He was misunderstood by his followers. Regrettably, with this objection often comes either some outrageous interpretation of the claims of Jesus that would never have held water in Judaism - or nothing at all but the suggestion itself without alternative. (One must, of course, when making this suggestion, should actually name some alternative interpretations of the claims of Jesus and show that these “alternative interpretations” would hold water within the social and historical context of the New Testament records). [15]
It may be objected that Jesus spoke rather cryptically at times, so that perhaps He truly was misunderstood. But as we will see, it is hardly plausible that Jesus’ claims were misunderstood; they are too clear-cut when understood in the context of the time and place they were made. [15]
We are also told that Jesus did explain things to His disciples privately after the crowds were gone: “He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.” (Mark 4:34). This was standard practice for an inner circle of disciple. For a practical example of this, see the ‘Parable of the Sower’ in Matthew 13. These disciples, of course, represent the people who wrote (Matthew, John) or else supplied information (Mark, Luke) for the Gospels. [15]
This argument is best defeated by examining the actual claims attributed to Jesus in the New Testament. [15] Evidence for Jesus’ Deity
Not one recognized religious leader, not Moses, Paul, Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious, etc., has ever claimed to be God; that is, with the exception of Jesus Christ. Christ is the only religious leader who has ever claimed to be deity and the only individual ever who has convinced a great portion of the world that He is God. [5 p.89] Jesus’ use of divine titles / names YHWH - Lord
In the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), the sacred name for God was YHWH, likely pronounced Yahweh. Yahweh (see Exodus 3:14) basically means “He who is”, or “I am who I am”. [31 p. 78] The Jewish people out of sheer reverence refused even to pronounce this name. [5 p. 99] Jesus, however, used this name when referring to himself!
John 8.24: “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be [or ‘I am he’], you will indeed die in your sins.”
John 8.28: “… then you will know that I am the one I claim to be [or ‘I am he’]…”
John 8.58-59: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him…
Notice how, in the last reference, the listeners immediately understood his claim. They picked up stones to execute him - the punishment for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16). [16]
Buy using this title to refer to himself, Jesus was making an explicit claim to be YHWH, to be God! Son of God
A son is of the same nature, the same species, the same essence, as his father. Jesus called God his Father, thereby saying that he is of the same nature as God. [1 p. 150]
Jesus makes it clear that he is not just ‘a son of God’ or one of the ‘sons of God’ but ‘the son of God’ (the phrase ‘sons of God’ is sometimes used to refer to men or angels in the Old Testament). In every instance where Jesus refers to himself as ‘God’s Son’, or to God as ‘my Father’, he implies that he is the one and only Son of God; co-equal and co-eternal with God. [5 p. 100]
Matthew 16.15-17: “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.”
Mark 14.62: Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus.
John 5.17-23: Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Notice several things about this important passage: [16]
Jesus claim to be the Son is understood by the audience as blasphemy—a claim to deity!
Jesus response is NOT to say ‘hey, but I am using sonship differently than that-I am NOT claiming to be God’—instead He simply continues describing the incredible unity between Himself and the Father (the Father’s works are the Son’s works, the Son knows everything the Father does, the Son gives life just like the Father does, the Father entrusts all judgment to the Son, the Son is supposed to be honored ‘just as’ the Father is honored, dishonoring the Son is equivalent to dishonoring the Father).
These are incredible claims. Jesus’ disciples and his enemies clearly understood from their Jewish backgrounds that by Jesus applying the term ‘Son of God’ to himself, he was claiming to be equal to God. [5 p. 101] Son of Man
Jesus often used the title “Son of man” to refer to himself. This title occurs in the Old Testament (Daniel 7: 13,14), and by the time of Jesus had tremendous messianic significance.
Daniel 7.13,14: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
Notice too the many divine qualities that are associated with the ‘Son of Man’. By using this title, Jesus clearly believed himself to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah - the King and deliverer / saviour expected by the Jews. [5 p. 102] It is also worth noting there was a belief that the Messiah was to be divine [31 p. 83]
Matthew 11.6,7: “… But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take our mat and go home.” And the man got up and went home.
Matthew 16:13-17 “When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”
Mark 14.62-64: Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven”. The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”
Notice too the response of the High. Jesus’ claims to be the Danielic messiah and to be the Son of God were understood by the 1st century Palestinian Jew to be claims to deity! [16]
Once one takes together, the 80+ passages in which Jesus makes use of the title “Son of Man”, we see indisputable evidence that Jesus proclaimed His divine identity through the title “Son of Man.” [15] Abba - Father
Jesus asserted that He had a relationship with God, which no one had ever claimed before. It comes out of the Aramaic word Abba which He often used, especially in prayer. Nobody before Him in all the history of Israel had addressed God by this word.
The Jews were accustomed to praying to God the Father: but the word they used was Abhinu, a form of address which was essentially an appeal to God for mercy and forgiveness. There is no appeal for mercy in Jesus’ mode of address, Abba. It is the familiar word of closest intimacy. By using it, he differentiated between His own relationship with God as Father and that of other people. [5 p. 102]
The Jewish leaders of the day, immediately, realized the implications of the word Abba, and charged Him with blasphemy. [5 p. 102]
John 5.17-18: Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus’ claims to be God
The New Testament reveals that Jesus claimed to have attributes that only God could posses. Jesus’ claims to pre-existence
Jesus claimed the have been pre-existent before his birth—he was around before Abraham. [16]
John 8.58-59: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him—Notice: This statement actually goes beyond pre-existence—it is an explicit claim to be YHWH. [16]
Jesus claimed to have been pre-existent in heaven with glory before His incarnation (God taking on human form) [16]
John 3.13: No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man
John 6.38: For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me
John 8.23: But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world” Jesus’ claims to be omnipresent
Jesus makes claims to be omnipresent - everywhere present at the same time. [31 p. 76]
Matthew 18.20: For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”
Matthew 28.20: “… And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Jesus’ claims to be omniscient
Jesus makes claims to be omniscient - to have infinite knowledge. [31 p. 77]
John 16.30: “Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.” “You believe at last!” Jesus answered.
John 13.21,26: “After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me…. It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon.”
Matthew 12.25: “Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them…”
Matthew 24:25: “… See, I have told you ahead of time”
Luke 22:31: “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat” Jesus’ claims to be omnipotent
Jesus makes claims to be omnipotent - to be all powerful. [31 p. 77]
Matthew 28.18: Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”
John 5.227: “And he [God] has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.”
John 10.17,18: “… I lay down my life… I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again”
John 6.37,39: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away… I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day”
John 1.3: Through him [Jesus] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Luke 4.38-40: Jesus … rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up at once and began to wait on them. When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.
Mark 4.41: They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!”
Luke 4.36: All the people were amazed and said to each other, “What is this teaching? With authority and power he gives orders to evil spirits and they come out!”
Jesus asks for and accepts worship as God
In the Jewish culture worship is reserved for God. [5 p. 95]
Jeremiah 17.5: This is what the Lord says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man…”
Matthew 4.10: Jesus said to him… “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only”
However, Jesus makes claims pertaining to the worship of himself! He holds himself out as a legitimate object of religious faith. [16]
Mark 9:42: “And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin…”
John 9.35-38: Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.” Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshipped him.
Notice: In this passage Jesus affirms himself as both a legitimate object of religious faith and as a legitimate object of worship! (No rebuke is given to the man at all for worshipping Jesus—even in the presence of the Pharisees!) [16]
It is important to note that Jesus never corrects those who accuse him of making himself equal to God, or those who called him “God”. [16]
John 5.17: See the previous note in the discussion of Jesus’ “Son of God” title
John 8.58-59: See the previous note in the discussion of Jesus’ “YHWH” title
John 20.28-29: Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Jesus’ claims to authority - authority that only God has
Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins. [16]
Luke 7.48-49: Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”
Mark 2.5-10: When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins....”
A rather strong statement of divine authority, and the context shows that it was a blasphemous assertion if He was not God!. Notice that He does not answer their charges with a “Hold on now! I am not claiming to be God! I am claiming something less!” [16]
Jesus had authority over the laws of the Sabbath - laws created by God. [16]
Mark 2.28: So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Jesus claims that the elect, and that the angels are his. [16]
Mark 13.26-27: “At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
Notice: Jesus identifies himself with the Divine figure in Daniel 7.13, talks of his coming with ‘great glory’, calls the angels ‘HIS angels’, calls the elect “HIS elect”, and somehow is able to gather them together from all places on the globe. There are quite a few strong deity claims in this little passage! [16]
Jesus implied that he had the ability/authority to abolish the law. [16]
Matthew 5.17: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them…”
Jesus implied a divine authority. [16]
Matthew 5: The “you have heard...but I say to you” passages are generally considered to be statements of divine authority [16]
Jesus had the authority to give authority over evil to others. [16]
Luke 10.19: I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you
Jesus claims to have universal authority. [16]
John 17.2: For you granted him authority over all people. [16]
Jesus has authority to confer a kingdom in the same manner that the God does. [16]
Luke 22.29: And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me
Jesus makes claims that make no sense if he is not God
His claims that his words will outlast time itself. [16]
Mark 13.31: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away
His claims that the eternal destiny of people depend on their response to Him. [16]
Matthew 7:21-23: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Notice that Jesus makes people’s eternal destiny contingent upon HIS approval of them! What an incredible claim! [16]
His claims to be absolutely perfect / sinless. [16]
John 8.46: Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?
Would a normal human being, with ethical standards as high as Jesus, ever claim to be sinless? [16]
Other claims that are ludicrous if Jesus is not God.
John 15.5: “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
Note: this is another passage that makes no sense without a divine Jesus. How could the phrase ‘apart from me you can do nothing’ make any sense—if Jesus were not God—omnipotent, omnipresent deity? [16]
John 17.10: All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. — Note that Jesus is praying to God in this verse
Unless Jesus is truly God, this statement is ridiculous. [16]
Additional claims about his nature and powers
Jesus is often linked to the word ‘Lord’.
Mark 11.3: If anyone asks you, `Why are you doing this?’ tell him, ‘The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.’
Mark 5.19: Jesus… said, “Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him.”
He even states he will be addressed as “Lord” (Mt 7.21-22a). This word is equitable with the title “Adonai” applied to God in the Old Testament, which logically means that Jesus thought of Himself as being God, or worthy of God’s divine title - which amounts to the same thing! [15]
Jesus claimed to be greater than the Temple, than the prophet Jonah, and than King Solomon. [16]
Matthew 12.6: I tell you that one greater than the temple is here
Matthew 12.41-42: The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here
Jesus claims to be able to give freedom.
John 8.36: So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed
Jesus claims to be able to raise himself from the dead.
John 10.17,18: The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.
This incredible passage has Jesus affirming that He can ‘raise Himself from the dead’ [16]
Jesus claims that he is responsible for sending prophets. [15]
Matthew 23.34: Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town
In Jewish belief, it is God who is responsible for sending prophets. In saying that He will send prophets, Jesus is equating Himself with God - assuming a role reserved for God alone. [15]
Jesus claims loyalty greater than all human loyalties. [16]
Matthew 10.37: “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me
Notice that Jesus claims allegiance and loyalty greater than the strongest of relationships—the family. Only a relationship with God supersedes those relationships! [16]
Jesus’ claims to equality with God
He claims to be, and is repeatedly called, the potentially blasphemous title “Son of God”.
See the previous discussion on the title “Son of God”
Jesus claims that one’s response to Him is equated to one’s response to God. [16]
John 15.23: He who hates me hates my Father as well.
This passage is preposterous if Jesus is not ‘identical’ in both character and action with God the Father
Jesus claims that he should be honoured to the same extent as God is honoured. [16]
John 5.22: Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him
Jesus claims that to see Him is to see God. [16]
John 14.9: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 12.44, 45: When a man… looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.
Jesus claims that to believe in Him is to believe in God. [16]
John 12.44: When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
Jesus claims that to know Him is to know God. [31 p. 82]
John 8.19: If you knew me, you would know my Father also.
He never corrects those who accuse him of making himself equal to nor those who called him “GOD”. [16]
See the previous discussion on this point
He claims that his coming to the Jewish people was the same as God’s coming. [16]
Luke 19.43,44: The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
He claims to operate with, and to the same extent as God [16]
John 5.17: Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
He claims direct equality with God [16]
John 10.30-39: I and the Father are one.” 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
This passage is so very clear as to the intent and content of Jesus’ claims—they were explicitly claims to being God! His affirmation of unity (30) is understood immediately as being a claim to deity (33). Jesus defends his affirmation with a technical argument in Rabbinic style. The general argument type is like this: “If it is okay to use the term X in a limited sense on Y, then it is certainly okay to use it in an expanded sense on a Z that is so much more than Y”. In this passage, He thus argues that if it was okay in the psalms to call the Israelite leaders ‘elohim’ once, then it was certainly appropriate to call the pre-existent One, special of the Father, perfect image of the Father’s character and actions, “GOD”. And, once again, they understand that claim to real deity and try to seize him! His claims were quite clear - He was claiming to be fully God. [16]
How those around Jesus Christ responded to Him [16]
God calls him “Son” and declares that He is “pleased” with Jesus (Matthew 3.16)
God tells some of the disciples to pay attention to Jesus (Matthew 17.5)
Evil spirits knew he was the Son of God (Matthew 8.28-29; 3.11) and the Holy One of God (Matthew 1.23)
His enemies knew he was claiming to be God (Matthew 9.3; 26.63; John 5.18; 10.33)—and accused him of blasphemy.
Some of the general populace called/considered him God (Luke 7.16; 8.39-40)
John the Baptist recognized Jesus’ radical superiority to himself (Matthew 3.13; John 1.26-30,34)
The disciples and those whose lives He touched worshipped Him (Matthew 14.33; John 9.35)
He was repeatedly called the Son of God (Matthew 14.33; 16.16; John 1.26-30,34; John 1.49; 11.27)
He was called “God” directly (John 20.27)
Later Rabbinical writings ‘remember’ some of these exorbitant claims of Jesus.
If we step back from the data at this point, and look at it in its entirety, we cannot but be overwhelmed by the massiveness of it! We might be able to argue away a little here, and a little there, but the sheer bulk of this cannot be moved. One cannot stop an avalanche ‘one rock at a time’. We come face to face with the reality that the Jesus shared all of the attributes, glory, and status of God. The claims above are simply too numerous and to consistently understood as being claims to deity. [16] Conclusion
The argument that Jesus never claimed to be divine is in fact nothing more than an unsupportable conjecture, an argument from silence competing against the scream of the available data. Each of the above claims, and every known document of the church, even the heretical ones, acknowledge that Jesus claimed divinity. There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary that can be cited. [15]
Jesus claimed to be God. No matter how hard we try to dissect it or explain it away, the evidence points directly to that most special claim made by Jesus. One must now answer His question: “Who do you say that I am?” [15] We now look at the truth of Jesus’ claims.
TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Click to Add Topic
KEYWORDS: apologetics; historicity; historicityofchrist; historicityofjesus; Click to Add Keyword
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This reminds me of an article I wrote about 20 years ago, previously posted on FR.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2056400/posts
*********************** My article from several years ago ************************
Date: 24-OCT-1994 14:28:12.94 From: “Kevin O’Malley” Reply-To: k3oma...@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us () Subj: RE: Evidence that Jesus Claimed to be God Part 1
Since I do not subscribe to this newsletter, please reply/comment by email.
Evidence that Jesus claimed to be God. *************************************
Three books I would recommend and which I will be quoting/borrowing from:
More than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell Abbrev: MTAC Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell Abbrev: ETDAV Jesus: God, Ghost or Guru? by Jon Buell & O.Q. Hyder Abbrev: JGGG
His actions:
———————————————————————————————————————— He forgave sin that had been committed against others. In Mark 2 a paralytic was lowered through a hole in the roof and Jesus said, “My son, your sins are forgiven.” The response of the scribes who were present was “He is blaspheming. Who can forgive sins but God alone?”(Mark 2:7) According to JGGG, “...there isn’t a single verse in the Old Testament (or other Jewish literature) that clearly designates for the Messiah the power to forgive sins, although the same literature does ascribe this power to Jehovah!” (JGGG 23)
He accepted worship.
Matthew 21:16. Jesus’ answer to the chief priests and scribes was to quote Psalm 8:2 “out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes Thou hastprepared praise for Thyself”
When Thomas felt his wounds after the resurrection, he cried out “Behold my Lord and my God!” (John 20:26-29) Jesus commented on Thomas’s unbelief rather than any misplaced worship — very significant for average 1st century monotheistic jews.
According to JGGG, other examples include Peter’s acclaim (Matt 16:16) accepting the title Son of the living God, and the worship of the disciples afloat on the Sea of Galilee (Matt 14:33) and again just prior to being commissioned in Matt28. According to MTAC Jesus demanded to be worshipped as God in John 5:23, “compare Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:8-14”.
Jesus’Words
———————————————————————————————————————— His use of the hebrew phrase “ani hu” which gets translated into greek variously as “I am He” or “I am”. The roots of the phrase, according to JGGG and Ethelbert Stauffer in “Jesus and His Story” are from various Old Testament scriputes such as Psalm 50:7 + 113-118, Isaiah 43, Deut 32 + 39 , 26:8, 5:16, etc. Ani is a self - disclosure term used by Jehovah. Hu is the emphatic form of the personal pronoun “huah”, which means “he”, and often used in the 1st century as a substitute for Yahweh. In Mark 13:6 Jesus warns that counterfeits saying “Ani Hu” would arise impersonating HIM. In John 13 Jesus says, “From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He (Ani Hu).” Finally, in front of the highest court in his land, Jesus responds to the question of whether he is the Messiah by saying, “Ani Hu” (Mark 16:61-62). Furthermore, Jesus follows up this claim by saying, “And you shall see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power coming on the clouds of Heaven.” Here Jesus quotes Daniel 7 and Psalm110:1. Jehovah is the only One in the Old Testament who comes on the clouds of Heaven, and being seated at the right hand of someone is an expression meaning to have equivalent status as that person. It’s important to note that Jesus was sentenced to death for who he claimed to be. John 10:30 Jesus says “I and the Father are one.” The jews who heard this rightly heard a claim to deity and tried to stone Jesus.
John 8:58 Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I am”, again followed by an attempted stoning.
John 14:9 Jesus says to Philip “He that has seen me has seen the Father”
Jesus’ response to the scribes John in 5:16-18 when he said “My Father is working until now, and I Myself and working” when he was accused of breaking the sabbath. According to MTAC, the cultural context is important and he is effectively saying ‘God is MY Father’ and they sought to kill him. MTAC: “The reason is that Jesus said ‘my Father,’ not ‘our Father,’ and then added “is working until now.’ Jesus’ use of these two phrases made himself equal with God, on a par with God’s activity. The Jews did not refer to God as ‘my Father.’ Or if they did, they would qualify the statement with ‘in Heaven.’ However, Jesus did not do this. He made a claim that the Jews could not misinterpret when he called God ‘my Father.’”
The basic phrases where Jesus claims to be one in essence with God. John 12:45 — He who beholds me beholds the One who sent me; John 8:19 — If you knew me, you would know my Father also; John 5:23 — He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him;
Opposing Sources
———————————————————————————————————————— Per Stauffer: “For if a confrontation of witnesses yields statements that agree on some points, then these points must represent facts accepted by both sides. This principle certainly holds true if the historical traditions of the two groups of witnesses are independent of each other. But it holds true almost as completely in cases where the traditions intersect. For it is highly significant that the witness for the prosecution admits that the witness for the defense is right on certain points; that he agrees with his opponents about certain common facts.”
Justin Martyr and Eusebius mention a circular letter issued by the Sanhedrin. Martyr Quotes from it: “...a certain Jesus of Galilee, an apostate preacher whom we crucified; but his disciples stole him by night from the cross; they did this in order to persuade men to apostasy by saying that he had awakened from the dead and ascended into heaven.” Per JGGG jewish tradition for at least a century afterwards independently continued to reject Jesus on the basis of his claim to deity.
Lucian, Greek satirist in 2nd century commenting on Jesus. “...the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws.” Per JGGG, “notice that Lucian specifically pins the blame for the worship of Jesus on ‘their first lawgiver himself.’
Pliny the Younger. (A.D. 61-112) Per JGGG After killing christians, he sought advice from Trajan, mentioning that christians “affirmed, however that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god...”
Jewish Polemic in commentary of Rabbi Eleazar Hakkapar (ca 170 a.d.) per JGGG. “God saw that a man, son of a woman, would come forth in the future who would endeavor to make himself God and to lead the whole world astray.... For it is said: ‘A man is not God.... And if he says he is God, he is a liar. And he will lead men astray and say that he is going and will come back again at the end of days.’ Is it not so that he spoke thus, but he will not be able to do it. “
Jewish Polemic : Per JGGG, Rabbi Abbahu of Caesarea (ca 270) puts the words of Jesus into Balaam’s mouth: “If a man says, ‘I am God,’ he is a liar, if he says I am the Son of Man,’ his end will be such that he will rue it; if he says, ‘I shall ascend to heaven,’ will it not be that he will have spoken and will not be able to perform it?’”
From JGGG: “The first independent test of the validity and integrity of of the reports that we have discussed is a telltale silence in all contemporary literature concerning the claim of Jesus’ deity. There is a complete ABSENCE OF REBUTTAL. Although much was said to deny his deity, nothing was said to deny that he claimed it. (In fact, the first real threat to the infant Christain church came from the Gnostics who wanted to deny his HUMANITY!) ....Paul, writing within thirty years of the events themselves, confidently challenged his readers to check with any eyewitnesses if they wanted to confirm the truthfulness of his message (1Cor. 15:5). THE FACT THAT JESUS CLAIMED DEITY IS WITHOUT A CHALLENGER IN THE FIRST-CENTURY HISTORICAL RECORDS.” (emphasis changed from italics to CAPITALS) This may be an argument from silence, but it is issued as a challenge.
Biblical evidence—Just a touch
Since most of the rest of the Bible was written before A.D. 90, there were many people who witnessed the events who could have stepped forward if the Gospels, Paul’s epistles, etc. were unfactual. (per JGGG with citation of demographic study)
Paul’s epistles include the following per JGGG: 1) that Jesus was the preexistent Creator of the universe (Col 1:15-16) 2) that Jesus existed both in the “form of man” and in the “form of God” (Phil.2:5,8) 3) that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, and thereafter was seen by over five hundred eyewitnesses (most of whom were alive when Paul wrote) (1Cor 15:4,5) 4) that prayer could be directed either to God the Father or to Jesus (1Cor 1:2) 5) that one day Jesus would return to earth as the divine judge of humanity (2Thess. 1:7-10) “No first-century Jew — especially one steeped in Jewish orthodoxy as was Paul, trained by the great Rabbi Gamaliel, fiercely monotheistic, a member of the sect of the Pharisees, and possibly even a member of the Great Sanhedrin ... would teach these things about anyone but Jehovah Himself.”
Hebrews 1:8 “But unto the son He says,’Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.”
John
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” v.14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory...”
Mark The beginning of the gospel of Mark quotes Malachi 3:1 with a significant alteration: “Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the before me.” Mark-—>”The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the prophets, “Behold I send my messenger before thy face...”
From ETDAV: Indirect claims of deity
———————————————————————————————————————— of Jehovah Mutual Title or Act Of Jesus
———————————————————————————————————————— Isa 40:28 Creator John 1:3 Isa 45:22,43:11 Savior John 4:42 1Sam 2:6 Raise Dead John 5:21 Joel 3:12 Judge JJohn 5:27 cf. cf Matt 25:31 ff
Isa 60:19-20 Light John 8:12 Exodus 3:14 I AM John 8:58, cf 18:5-6 ps.23:1 Shepherd John 10:11 Isa 42:8, cf48:11 Glory of God John 17:1,5 Isa 41:4,44:6 First and Last Rev1:17;2:8 Hosea 13:14 Redeemer Rev 5:9 Isa 62:5 Rev 21:2, + Hosea 2:16 Bridegroom cf: Matt 25:1 ff Ps. 18:2 Rock 1 Cor 10:4 Jer 31:34 Forgiver of Sins Mark 2:7, 10 Ps 148:2 Worshipped by Angels Heb 1:6 Thru out O.T. Addressed in Prayer Acts 7:59 Ps. 148:5 Creator of Angels Col 1:16 Isa 45:23 Confessed as Lord Phil 2:11
Kevin O’Malley k3oma...@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us
From: Kevin O’Malley k3oma...@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us 24-OCT-1994 14:28:12.94 Subj: RE: Evidence that Jesus Claimed to be God
Evidence that Jesus claimed to be God. Part II ************************** Continued from previous post ****************************
Opposing Sources Per Stauffer: “For if a confrontation of witnesses yields statements that agree on some points, then these points must represent facts accepted by both sides. This principle certainly holds true if the historical traditions of the two groups of witnesses are independent of each other. But it holds true almost as completely in cases where the traditions intersect. For it is highly significant that the witness for the prosecution admits that the witness for the defense is right on certain points; that he agrees with his opponents about certain common facts.”
Justin Martyr and Eusebius mention a circular letter issued by the Sanhedrin. Martyr Quotes from it: “...a certain Jesus of Galilee, an apostate preacher whom we crucified; but his disciples stole hime by night from the cross; they did this in order to persuade men to apostasy by saying that he had awakened from the dead and ascended into heaven.” Per JGGG jewish tradition for at least a century afterwards independently continued to reject Jesus on the basis of his claim to deity.
Lucian, Greek satirist in 2nd century commenting on Jesus. “...the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws.” Per JGGG, “notice that Lucian specifically pins the blame for the worship of Jesus on ‘their first lawgiver himself.’
Pliny the Younger. (A.D. 61-112) Per JGGG After killing christians, he sought advice from Trajan, mentioning that christians “affirmed, however that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god...”
Jewish Polemic in commentary of Rabbi Eleazar Hakkapar (ca 170 a.d.) per JGGG. “God saw that a man, son of a woman, would come forth in the future who would endeavor to make himself God and to lead the whole world astray.... For it is said: ‘A man is not God.... And if he says he is God, he is a liar. And he will lead men astray and say that he is going and will come back again at the end of days.’ Is it not so that he spoke thus, but he will not be able to do it. “
Jewish Polemic : Per JGGG, Rabbi Abbahu of Caesarea (ca 270) puts the words of Jesus into Balaam’s mouth: “If a man says, ‘I am God,’ he is a liar, if he says I am the Son of Man,’ his end will be such that he will rue it; if he says, ‘I shall ascend to heaven,’ will it not be that he will have spoken and will not be able to perform it?’”
From JGGG: “The first independent test of the validity and integrity of of the reports that we have discussed is a telltale silence in all contemporary literature concerning the claim of Jesus’ deity. There is a complete ABSENCE OF REBUTTAL. Although much was said to deny his deity, nothing was said to deny that he claimed it. (In fact, the first real threat to the infant Christain church came from the Gnostics who wanted to deny his HUMANITY!) ....Paul, writing within thirty years of the events themselves, confidently challenged his readers to check with any eyewitnesses if they wanted to confirm the truthfulness of his message (1Cor. 15:5). THE FACT THAT JESUS CLAIMED DEITY IS WITHOUT A CHALLENGER IN THE FIRST-CENTURY HISTORICAL RECORDS.” (emphasis changed from italics to CAPITALS) This may be an argument from silence, but it is issued as a challenge.
Biblical evidence—Just a touch
Since most of the rest of the Bible was written before A.D. 90, there were many people who witnessed the events who could have stepped forward if the Gospels, Paul’s epistles, etc. were unfactual. (per JGGG with citation of demographic study)
Paul’s epistles include the following per JGGG: 1) that Jesus was the preexistent Creator of the universe (Col 1:15-16) 2) that Jesus existed both in the “form of man” and in the “form of God” (Phil.2:5,8) 3) that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, and thereafter was seen by over five hundred eyewitnesses (most of whom were alive when Paul wrote) (1Cor 15:4,5) 4) that prayer could be directed either to God the Father or to Jesus (1Cor 1:2) 5) that one day Jesus would return to earth as the divine judge of humanity (2Thess. 1:7-10) “No first-century Jew — especially one steeped in Jewish orthodoxy as was Paul, trained by the great Rabbi Gamaliel, fiercely monotheistic, a member of the sect of the Pharisees, and possibly even a member of the Great Sanhedrin ... would teach these things about anyone but Jehovah Himself.”
Hebrews 1:8 “But unto the son He says,’Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.”
John
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” v.14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory...”
Mark The beginning of the gospel of Mark quotes Malachi 3:1 with a significant alteration: “Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the before me.” Mark-—>”The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the prophets, “Behold I send my messenger before thy face...”
From ETDAV: Indirect claims of deity of Jehovah Mutual Title or Act Of Jesus Isa 40:28 Creator John 1:3 Isa 45:22,43:11 Savior John 4:42 1Sam 2:6 Raise Dead John 5:21 Joel 3:12 Judge JJohn 5:27 cf. cf Matt 25:31 ff
Isa 60:19-20 Light John 8:12 Exodus 3:14 I AM John 8:58, cf 18:5-6 ps.23:1 Shepherd John 10:11 Isa 42:8, cf48:11 Glory of God John 17:1,5 Isa 41:4,44:6 First and Last Rev1:17;2:8 Hosea 13:14 Redeemer Rev 5:9 Isa 62:5 Rev 21:2, + Hosea 2:16 Bridegroom cf: Matt 25:1 ff Ps. 18:2 Rock 1 Cor 10:4 Jer 31:34 Forgiver of Sins Mark 2:7, 10 Ps 148:2 Worshipped by Angels Heb 1:6 Thru out O.T. Addressed in Prayer Acts 7:59 Ps. 148:5 Creator of Angels Col 1:16 Isa 45:23 Confessed as Lord Phil 2:11
Kevin O’Malley k3oma...@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us
Same here. Praise God for that. And Merry Christmas, the celebration of the birth of Christ, our Immanuel. Celebrating the true meaning of Immanuel is so much better than whatever heretical nonsense is the supposed alternative.
Please explain how God can be subjected to God:
1 Corinthians 15:
“Then cometh the end, when he (Christ) shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father … And when all things have been subjected unto him (Christ), then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him (God), who did subject all things unto him (Christ), that God may be all in all.” (verses 24-28, RV)
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Immanuel - from im and el (with us is God)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Then Jesus identified himself as that “son of man” who would be “coming in the clouds of heaven”.
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Those who deny that Jesus was truly God and truly man deny what both the Old and the New Testaments say. Jesus said that those who denied His words will be judged on the last day.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Unless you understand that Jesus was truly man and speaking as a man at times and that He was also truly God you cannot you will be judged with those who denied His words.
My explanation probably won’t satisfy you. And whatever your point is, it does not negate all that evidence that Jesus claimed to be equal with God.
What non-trinitarians don’t seem to realize is that the question of what Jesus claimed towards His identity is a purely historical question. It is not a religious question. When they start taking an idealogical position to the evidence, eventually they throw out very reliable historical documentation in their quest.
A secondary argument is to approach from the religious aspect. That appears to be what you’re attempting here. I prefer to stay away from religious arguments. The historical evidence that Jesus claimed equality with God is so strong as to be overwhelming. Processing that information is a matter of personal faith, and many of us lack a full understanding of the trinity. But that part doesn’t matter, as long as one accepts the facts. Faith comes afterwards.
And it doesn’t take a whole lotta faith, either. Once one examines the huge pile of evidence that Jesus claimed to be God, one just has to answer whether Jesus was a Liar or a Lunatic or He was Who He said He was. Just asking yourself, “do I think Jesus was a good man, or a bad man” is enough. That is all the faith required.
This is the brilliance in God's Plan. God is subject to His own decrees. His integrity demands it. His Holiness is comprised of His Perfect Justice and His Perfect Righteousness.
This is why when He became flesh, 'God Incarnate', He was able to provide the Perfect Sacrifice for all humanity, becoming sin for us in His humanity.
God the Son, subjected Himself to the Plan of God the Father, to have all human sin imputed upon Him at the Cross. He was Perfect Righteousness, and God the Father's Perfect Holiness demanded Perfect Justice when sin was imputed upon Christ at the Cross.
The Cross was ALL JUDGMENT.
When Christ proclaimed TETELESTAI! (It Is FINISHED!), the judgment had been completed, once and forever.
Sin has now all been judged.
God was subject to His own edicts. He is immutable.
This is not how other lesser gods or religions are able to handle good and evil. God's Plan is first based upon His Perfect Holiness. His love for man also provides immense blessings for us.
If God didn't subject Himself to His Word, then His eternal promises wouldn't have merit.
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