Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
I guess what else I’m asking is if the Gentiles who are being saved by faith in Christ, through the new covenant, are of the bloodline of the House of Israel.
If the house of Israel was dispersed among the Gentiles, that would make sense.
Maybe that could explain the apparent randomness of why some people and families seem to see a lot of conversion, and others don’t.
IOW, that would be the criteria of why God *chooses* to save people as the Calvinists say. It’s not really for some reason that we don’t know.
Interesting concept.
Further upstream you posted a very interesting concept regarding Gentiles and Jews and God's predestination plan. That IS interesting and would be a great idea to kick around...:)
How much further upstream?
The only other comment I recall posting was 357 which I elaborated a little more on in post 361.
Posts 360 and 361. I’m just trying to wrap my mind around the concept you suggested. We were indeed chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world, the Jews were choses SINCE the foundation of the world, and right now, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but one new man making up the Body of Christ. I’m thinking, thinking here...
Well, don’t strain anything.
I’m going to sleep on it some. See you tomorrow.
Would you say the New Jerusalem was in heaven during the time of Isaiah 54 and would have been inhabited by the Israelites until God “set them aside”?
>>and very likely by actual bloodline.<<
Speculation. There may be some of that but when Christ sent Paul those Gentiles were not descendents of the Israelites.
>>Replacement theology leaves it's mark on Christendom, even to this day.<<
That’s a curious statement inserted here. Tell me, do you believe the “church” took the place of Israel under the New Covenant or not?
>>There is not one thing for the Jew and one thing for the Gentile, but rather, by now, the Jew and the Gentile are one thing.
And yet God separates out 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes during the tribulation which is the seven years God deals specifically with the Israelites as a nation and His people again according to the 490 years prophesied in Daniel. So yes, there is still a separation.
>>In the opinion of many who've studied this for many years, the above will likely occur on Tishri 1 (of the corrected calendar), Yom Teruuah (year unknown) - (fifteen days prior to the marriage supper of the Lamb).<<
So we really will know the day? It’s interesting to me that people seem to ignore some passages. Those on earth can well know the day of Christ’s return to conquer the enemies of Israel. The prophecy of Daniel is very specific about the number of days from the signing of the peace treaty until he anti Christ sets himself up in the Temple and then a specific number of days until the Lord returns to conquer. The not knowing the “day or the hour” is in reference to the rapture.
Trumpets were used to gather the Israelites and tell them to move. The last trumpet was a signal that the last tribe was to move out which meant the evacuation of that area was complete. Trumpets were not used only for feast days.
There is “neither Jew nor Gentile” under Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
We are also no longer servants but sons of God.
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
But look at the status of the 12 tribes of Israel during the tribulation while God is “bringing them to Him”.
Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
So the tribes of Israel who have not yet accepted Christ as their savior are still “under the law” and are called servants. It’s only those who have accepted Christ alone as their savior who are “no longer Jew nor Gentile”.
Thanks.
What about tying in a reference to Ezekiel 37:15-28 when you have an opportunity. :)
Trying to speculate about Ezekiel 37/38 is like trying to herd cats - since, IMHO, most of it has not occurred yet, so I will try to limit myself to broad strokes - but we are definitely on the cusp of these things becoming real. I DO believe Ez 37's 'Valley of Dry Bones' has been accomplished, culminating in the establishment of Israel in 1948. That establishment is the ensign, the standard, the battle flag raised upon YHWH's ground.
I think differently than most do here. I see a different thing. I think the 'end days' began 2k years ago, as declared by both Paul and John. I think the 'death of the testator' in Hebrews is misread by Christians, in that while they see the Messiah's death as the release of His inheritance before the fact to His believers who will come, few stop to speculate on the bare fact that the promises of YHWH, the inheritance of Israel's patriarchal line ALSO required the death of the testator in order for that inheritance to be released. We should be able to see the things promised by inheritance to Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes beginning to take place after the death of Messiah, as the guarantor of Abraham.
I see the four horsemen as being four governmental paradigms beginning to form shortly thereafter. I think the white horseman with the bow signifies Ephraim. Significantly, he is given a crown (the only legitimate one), and rides off to conquer. The fog of war is a messy business, but two things are forwarded - With conquering, the patriarchal line establishes... lands, kingdoms, peoples. With loss, the matriarchal line establishes by infecting the enemy - his daughters are hauled off, impregnated, sold, etc... Remember that the Hebrews factor inheritance by the father, but nationality by the mother.
Both are required, in my mind - the first sets up the tribes as entities - necessary to prophecy, as all of the tribes are mentioned as separate and individual entities in end time battles, and each is given promises which need to be executed within the end times scope. The second continues the blending of the House of Israel into the gentiles on a very global scale.
Ez37 15+ ultimately speaks of (the House of) Judah and Ephraim (the House of Israel) being united with Messiah as their king. That is already beginning to be fulfilled spiritually as both Jews and Christians are starting to find common ground in Messianic Judaism and Christian Hebrew Roots type movements... As Judah rejects Talmudism for Messiah and Torah, and Ephraim rejects Romanism for Messiah and Torah, both are beginning to realize they are brothers. In that is to be found the true ecumenicism and unity that Romanism has been attempting to imitate for centuries...
But I think the nationalistic/physical realization of that is still to come, and it is going to be a very bumpy and painful ride. Something very big and very terrible rises even now, and that will be met by YHWH with something very definite and declaratory, opening the eyes of many. I think that event will change everything, and how it settles out is going to determine what we can see beyond..
I expect that to be the War of Magog, but I can't do more than speculate.
Thank you for your kind reply... I kinda figured you and I would see things a lot alike. : )
Yup. Sorry all... : P
If you're not going to discuss the three markers I gave you, I doubt trying to explain Daniel's 70 week prophecy is the answer. However, everything I've told you is part and parcel of the third layer of the 70 week prophecy.
That entire seven year period is called “the day of the Lord” as He is once again directing all activities.
Wrong.
So we really will know the day?
The second coming will likely be a shadow picture of Yom Teruah. Many fulfillments, such as the Messiah's first coming which the Passover was a shadow of, are shadows of future events. It's why the Almighty instructed us to keep the feasts and his calendar.
Trumpets were not used only for feast days.
Sure, but it's the Almighty's "feast of the trumpets", the day man was created, the "days of awe" that are likely a shadow of more to come, i.e., the "day of the Lord" when scripture says the last trump will be sounded again.
I encourage you to study the second layer of Daniel's 70 week prophecy, the one completely fulfilled. You'll be amazed and again humbled by what actually transpired.
Perhaps some of what you see is only one layer of many layers of the same prophecy as many prophecies have multiple layers, some barely discernible.
Anyway, it's a pleasure to discuss the Almighty's mysteries with someone open, honest, and unshackled from ego. :)
Yes, though there are two factors - There still also needs to be a physical/nationalistic representation of the tribes too. In the ending battles they have armies, and are included by name - so there must be a physical manifestation, and it must needfully be a distinct thing from what we know as the nation of Israel right now...
The Jews ARE the House of Judah. The very name 'Jew' is a shortened form thereof. You will not find 'Jew' used in the Bible to describe any other. 'Jews,' the House of Judah, have within them the tribe of Levi (the Kohenim, priestly line), part of the tribe of Benjamin, and of course the tribe of Judah. All the other tribes, including the rest of Benjamin, are figured in the House of Israel. The NATION of Israel, the current, physical Israel IS the House of Judah.
Messiah said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
No one is exempt, not child, Jew, Gentile, Chinese, Russian, American Indian, or ... Those not in Messiah at the second coming, will remain in the grave until judged by him after the millennial reign (Rev 20:11 - 15).
Therefore, No one comes to the Father except through Yeshua.
Oh come now. It’s rather easy especially now. Ezekiel 37 is the re-gathering of the Israelites back to the land God gave them. It’s happening right now but no complete as Israel must re-occupy much of the surrounding land and totally control Jerusalem. This chapter culminates at the time God’s throne will be set up in the New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven.
Ezekiel 38 is the nations of Russia, Iran and the surrounding countries that attack Israel after Israel has regained all of the land God gave them and think they live in security. Watch as it’s all being set up to happen.
That’s right He did. The Jews don’t recognize Christ as their messiah and believe themselves to still be under the law, thus the longing to rebuild the temple and to once again have the sacrifices. The Temple will be rebuilt in the near future and they will do just that until the anti Christ stops it and sets himself up in that Temple as God.
Yeah, they're going to discover that they were wrong. But if they kept the Almighty's commandments, I believe through their works they will be saved, just as Yeshua reveled to John in Rev. 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Another thing that WILL happen before the second coming: there will be a significant someone or some body in Israel that will proclaim, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of YHVH"!
I know that will mean some serious "tribulation" beforehand.
I thought I did. Jesus, in Matthew 24 is talking about after the seven year tribulation. It’s at the end of the tribulation that the sun is darkened and Christ will gather all of His elect.
Until you understand the distinction between the “age of the Gentiles” or the church age and God’s dealing with Israel you can never understand either Daniels 70th week or Revelation.
>>I encourage you to study the second layer of Daniel's 70 week prophecy, the one completely fulfilled.<<
The first 483 years of that 490 year prophesy has been fulfilled but the 70th week is yet totally unfulfilled.
That’s not the meaning of Revelation 20:12. No one will ever be saved without accepting Christ as savior.
>>according to their works."<<
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
Always keep those words of Jesus in mind.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.