Posted on 05/31/2013 2:44:05 PM PDT by NYer
First of all, by all accounts Luke was written from 58-63AD so that’s only 25 – 30 years so that 40-70 years is in error. Second, how soon it was “widely distributed” is immaterial to this discussion. The point is that he saw a need to write things down because already by that time “oral” transmission was obviously causing problems.
>>It was fed by the Oral Teachings of the Apostles and witnesses which continues to this day.<<
Seriously? They have convinced you that the apostles and witnesses are still alive today? Go figure.
How did it change?
I’m convinced that anyone who makes the statement that once saved always saved indicates that someone believes they can sin without impunity has no idea what salvation entails.
The subtle changes and additions to truth and what the gospel really says is Satan’s way and the RCC has mastered the technique.
You miss the parallelism there Adam -> Christ. Which is also why you don’t even quote the remainder of that passage.
Well, that’s what Apostolic Succession is.
Now, my question to you - if you don’t believe in this - why are you a member of your church?
It’s one thing to assert that the Catholic church is wrong about this - but if the Catholic church is wrong then so are all the protestant churches. None of them have this either.
Which begs the question, doesn’t it?
Would you please show writings by the apostles that proves that? If you cannot that entire post and the elevation of Mary beyond what scripture teaches is based on speculation and myth.
“Now if you can provide some Scripture to show that sin entered the world through the woman”
I already have. You stated that Eve sinned, and since Eve first ate of the Apple, she sinned before Adam.
“that she is responsible”
So are you asserting then that Eve sinned but was not culpable?
Why? You don’t regard apostolicity as important for yourself.
Your church is connected with God, is it not, even though it lacks this feature. So why then do you attack the Catholic church for claiming she possesses something that you do not?
It’s indicative of the complete mind control a cult has.
LOL Some of them must be listening to a different spirit or something. At least that’s what I’ve been told when Protestants don’t all agree on something in scripture. Who’d a thunk it happens in the RCC as well. If it wasn’t so eternally serious it would be funny watching the double speak.
“Where?”
Several posts ago and here.
“So then we can conclude that the magisterium isn’t being led by the Holy Spirit after all.”
Your argument:
1, the Holy Spirit is only in Churches where the elders are unanimously in agreement, is false.
Say, I turn this around. Give me a denomination where the elders are in unanimous agreement on every point of scripture. :)
I’ll save you the time. What it means is that no elders have any authority whatsoever, if this were true.
However, we know from Scripture that Christ promises that the Gates of Hell will not overcome his Church. And since Christ isn’t a liar, this means that his Church existed in the first century and existed today.
This rules out every protestant church since there is a gap of 1500 years from their formation and Christ.
So who does that leave? The Orthodox and the Catholic church. So, are you claiming then that the Orthodox are unanimous? Obviously not because you are not one.
What we can conclude is that while you believe in personal infalliability - that you really don’t believe that uniformity is an important principle. So why are you saddling the Catholic church with this belief that doesn’t appear anywhere in scripture?
Scripture in fact addresses this. Scripture shows that Peter himself was wrong. Does that mean that Peter was never infused with the Holy Spirit?
“How can He give them two different or contradictory opinions?”
I might ask you the same thing. You say you are motivated by the Holy spirit, and yet you disagree with me. Are you saying that I am not motivated by the Holy Spirit because I disagree with you?
How many hours on the internet to arrive at that answer?
Not all accounts, some accounts put it in that time frame. Some actually put it as early as 40 AD when Theophilus ben Ananus, High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem. Other put it later under the belief that Theophilus was generic meaning Friend of God.
In any event, the writing was preceded by many years of oral tradition that did not automatically stop with the writing of the Gospels. For the next 200 years there is was illegal to possess Christian texts and the owners faced the prospect of martyrdom, and other punishments including forfeiture of property and being sold into servitude. Even after it was legal, literacy was very low, and Hebrew competency outside of Jerusalem was almost zero. God had a reason to rely on the Oral Tradition.
Peace be with you
There is not such thing as “apostolic succession”. That is another myth perpetrated by the RCC cult. Jesus appointed the apostles and they were the “witnesses” who were promised that they would “remember” what was said and what happened. No other people in history or today were given that promise or commission.
How many hours on the internet to arrive at that answer?
Not all accounts, some accounts put it in that time frame. Some actually put it as early as 40 AD when Theophilus ben Ananus, High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem. Other put it later under the belief that Theophilus was generic meaning Friend of God.
In any event, the writing was preceded by many years of oral tradition that did not automatically stop with the writing of the Gospels. For the next 200 years there is was illegal to possess Christian texts and the owners faced the prospect of martyrdom, and other punishments including forfeiture of property and being sold into servitude. Even after it was legal, literacy was very low, and Hebrew competency outside of Jerusalem was almost zero. God had a reason to rely on the Oral Tradition.
Peace be with you
Says who? Should we rip 1 Corinthians 12 out of our Bibles now too?
I agreed with you both on the value of children learning the Bible but scripture alone does not address all the contemporary issues that we face in life - or does it?
So you place contraception and divorce in the same category as in vitro fertilization? They are contemporary issues of life which the Bible does not address?
Are you serious?
After all the shredding of non-Catholics over the issue of contraception I've seen Catholics do, how can you even go there?
OK, on what basis then does the Catholic church takes it's position on those issues? If the Bible doesn't address those issues by name, which by the way, it does in the case of divorce, then how does the Catholic church justify it's stand on any of them itself, for example its anti-contraception stand? And I take it then that the Catholic church is fine with in vitro fertilization since it isn't mentioned in Scripture.
Absolutely. And it's the epitome of projection, because that's what they'd do if they felt their salvation was secure, so they think everyone else would too.
Why would we do that? Do you not understand what words mean? Let’s read it and I’ll highlight in red the word to focus on.
1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Now why would the RCC change that word to “office” of apostle? The “office” of apostle never continued. The RCC using the deception to hold power is nothing but cult tactics and a lie.
http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2009/08/assumption-of-mary-into-heaven-and.html
The Dormition of the Mother of God took place while Thomas was preaching the Gospel in India. All the other Apostles had been caught up from various lands on the clouds of heaven, and were transported to Gethsemane, to the bier of the all-blessed Virgin. But Thomas was not brought at the time of the others so the faithful could be assured that the Mother of God was bodily assumed into Heaven. For just like they were more assured of the Resurrection of Christ, through the disbelief of Thomas, in a similar way they learned of the bodily assumption into heaven of the all-pure Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, through the delay of Thomas.
It was on the third day after her burial that Thomas was suddenly caught up in a cloud in India and transported to a place in the air above the tomb of the Virgin. From that vantage point, he witnessed the translation of her body into the heavens, and cried out to her,”Where are you going O all-holy one?” And, removing her cincture, she gave it to Thomas, saying, “Receive this, my friend.”And then she was gone.
Thomas then descended to find the other disciples keeping watch over her tomb. He sat down beside them, with the cincture in his hand, sad that he was not there with them when she repose. He said,”We are all disciples of the Master; we all preach the same thing; we are all servants of one Lord, Jesus Christ. How, then, is it that ye were counted worthy to behold the repose of His Mother, and I was not? Am I not an Apostle? Can it be that God is not pleased with my preaching? I beseech you, my fellow disciples: open the tomb, that I also may look upon her remains, and embrace them, and bid her farewell.
Taking pity on him, the Apostles opened the tomb so he could venerate the sacred relics. When they opened the tomb, they were all aghast when they discovered that her remains had vanished, not realizing that just moments before she had been bodily transported to paradise. All that remained were the burial clothes, which emitted a wonderful fragrance. They stood in amazement and then each of them kissed the burial clothes which were lying in the tomb. They then prayed to the Lord that He would reveal to them where the body of the Theotokos had been transported.
What is a Cincture?
In Biblical times, the cincture or girdle was made of leather or cloth. It is significant that the Virgin left her cloth cincture to the Apostle Thomas and, subsequently, to the Church. The girdle, placed around the middle and the loins, wherein is the seat of desire, signifies the mortification of carnal desires. We know that the immaculate Virgin Mother subdued the passions. We chant during the service of the Deposition of the Cincture of the Theotokos (commemorated on the 31st of August) that thy cincture as the garment of thy virginity and bridehood, is truly shown to be a most honorable wedding chamber, O Theotokos. Saint Joseph the Hymnographer understood that the precious relic of the Virgin’s cincture or girdle was left to us as a surety of her mediation and assistance to Orthodox strugglers for purity and chastity. Hence, he chants, The heart is renewed which touches the sacred cincture of the Virgin with fervent faith, for it is girded about with invincible power against impure passions and remains unscathed by incorporeal foes. Thus, it is meaningful when, in the taking of the Great Angelic Habit, the candidate receives the girdle and is told to “gird his loins with the power of truth, for mortification of body and renewal of spirit, and for courage and caution, in fulfillment of Christ’s commandment.”
Life of The Virgin Mary pp 481-483
The Holy Belt, according to the tradition, was made by the Blessed Virgin Mary herself with camel hair. The Empress Zoi, wife of Leo 6th the Wise, out of gratitude for her miraculous cure, embroidered the Belt with gold thread, as it is found today, but divided in three pieces. Originally it was being kept in Jerusalem and later in Constantinople. There during the 12th century under Manuel A’ Komninos (1143-1180) an official holiday for the Belt was established on August 31st. In the end, Emperor John the 6th Katakouzinos (1347-1355), who had a special love toward the Holy Great Monastery of Vatopedi, as is evidence by many related accounts, donated the Belt to the Monastery. Since then the Holy Belt is kept at the Holy Monastery of Vatopedi, in a silver case of newer manufacture which depicts the Monastery.
More fraud, I suppose?
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