Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer
Don’t know what third and fourth generation reformers believe nor do I study what Luther believed. I believe what scripture teaches.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
You don't believe in the Communion of Saints or you have a different definition of it than the Apostles, the Church Fathers and the orthodox Christians today.
You're welcome to it, but you've lost the realization of a great deal of the Body of Christ - this teaching began sometime in the last 300 years or so. It's a shame for those who do not realize the real Body of Christ that exists.
Scripture clearly teaches not to contact those who have left this life.
Scripture according to your teachers anyway. You and they seem to have confused conjuring with intercessory prayer in the Body of Christ.
I'm assuming you believe in intercessory prayer - that it "influences the course of events," and that, therefore, your post indicates an ignorance that lies in a different area of the Christian faith as preserved by the Church and revealed in Her Holy Scriptures.
Scripture teaches us that Christ has overcome death, and that our God is the God of the living - and we are alive in Christ.
This realization, of the full Body of Christ in communion, also was lost over the last few centuries.
Being a modern individual without a teaching church thinking one is one's own authority on Christ and Holy Scripture often means missing a great deal of the Christian Faith.
Might as well pick up a copy of Grey's Anatomy and call oneself a surgeon.
My mom and yours excepted of course. :)
Why do you seem to be unable to understand this point? It isn't a matter of a "simple question" it is a harassing question much like the, "What denomination are you from?", we see often. It is a tactic that turns a personal question into a demand with consequences if you don't answer me NOW. These threads are not supposed to be "made personal". If you have not gleaned someone's beliefs from the many postings they have made over time, then either you aren't paying attention or you don't really care what the answer is you just like to harass someone. If someone does tell their personal information, it then gets turned around on them by finding something bad about what someone in their denomination did and smearing them with that information. It gets turned into a weapon of revenge. No wonder people don't want to play.
Look at what you just did to Cynical Bear. He answered your query with Scripture verses that he believes about Jesus' divinity and you post to ALL saying, "looky here, cynical bear believes what New Advent says...". It's a GAME. We know it is a GAME. We don't want to play the GAME. Do you get it? That is how it is coming across.
So, therefore, you cannot tell if an object *is* an idol without knowing the faith of an individual - that they put their faith in the object to protect them.
Is that a correct statement of your view?
Show me from scripture where Christ sanctioned praying to or even through those who have left this life. He told us to go directly to the Father in His name.
Give it up D-fendr. Parsing won’t work. The legalistic approach of Catholics doesn’t work with those of us who have been freed by Christ. I realize that the legalistic mindset of the Catholic demands the rules and minutia but once freed of all of that we who are truly free in Christ put that behind us. Read what scripture says about using images and make up your own mind.
We all do, we just don't agree on what it means.
My question is really quite simple; do you believe that all of what is necessary for Salvation is found in Scripture (sufficiency) or that Salvation can only be found in Scripture (exclusivity).
Peace be with you
Easy! A cult is a religious group originating as a heretical sect and maintaining fervent commitment to heresy. Your heretical beliefs are a foundational beginning. And, using your list, correct me where I err here:
It is your own authority that determines Holy Scripture. You claim special authority, divine revelation in that the Holy Spirit through you interprets Holy Scripture correctly - all other interpretations are incorrect, according to the Holy Spirit (according to you).
You are intolerant of any and all other authority than yourself. You alone determine who Christ is, what following Christ means, and what 'revere' means, what worship means, etc. etc.
I can't know but suspect that there are those whom you influence, who "follow" you; however, every cult starts with one, some may remain that way, to the dismay of the would-be leader.
As to your list's "Dressing differently, sometimes in special uniforms or costumes"... well, I bet you have some of those in your closet. I don't, but some say I wear funny clothes. :)
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
The means by which we are saved is an unwavering faith in Jesus.
John 6:38-40 Jesus said, “I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day”
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Paul rebukes Peter for applying rules for salvation.
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Acts 13:39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
1 JOHN 2:12 I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Relying on some legal earthly act is law not grace and faith.
And how do we know?
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
What I mean is obvious. She is not a deity. She is a regular human who has no more power than you or me when we are dead.
Thank you, verga.
“These debates”...
Unfortunately, these ARE debates, which indicates that there are winners and losers.
That wouldn’t be so, if these were the “discussions” they are purported to be.
Friend, I do think that it would be a better choice to discontinue asking for an answer to your question.
Rather you're giving it up.
I realize that the legalistic mindset of the Catholic demands the rules and minutia..
I don't think that particular dodge applies.
If one claims a billion folks are idolaters, _______ requires that person to know, clearly, what an idol is.
In the above blank, we could put courtesy, logic, honesty, reason... I don't think "legalistic mindset" fits.
It would be foolish to take seriously a charge of idolatry from someone who doesn't know what makes an idol an idol.
The more flames and dodges are used to obscure, the more obvious it is that the charge comes from ignorance.
Source for that?
>> It is your own authority that determines Holy Scripture.<<
Nope. Christ and what the Apostles taught in scripture. The Holy Spirit just guides me to parts of scripture to interpret other parts of scripture.
>> You are intolerant of any and all other authority than yourself.<<
Not in the least. Others can believe what they want. I won’t refrain from pointing to scripture and ask them to show how that differs from what they believe. I will, if they claim to believe scripture, ask them to show me where in scripture they get their belief. Intolerent? Not at all. If they don’t line up with scripture I surely won’t agree with them or follow them.
>> You alone determine who Christ is, what following Christ means, and what 'revere' means, what worship means, etc. etc.<<
You can’t be serious. I let God’s word tell me. Certainly not some supposed “Church” who has beliefs contrary to scripture or who has added conjecture to their beliefs.
>> well, I bet you have some of those in your closet.<<
Bet I don’t.
It isn’t showing “partiality” to call Mary “Blessed”. It’s quite Biblical.
“Blessed art thou among women...”
If, in the Bible, an angel calls Mary “blessed’, we can’t err in doing so as well.
It seems quite convoluted to claim that in doing so, one commits the sin of partiality.
Of course she’s not a deity, but she is very special. Almost as special as your mother is to you. :)
And I think we disagree on the Communion of Saints again. I’m really sorry this aspect of the Christian faith has been lost to many. It is, literally, as if a large part of the Body of Christ is torn off, missing. At least not realized. I wish I could put into words what this loss truly means.
thanks much for your reply.
I gave you scripture that clearly defined what idolatry is and you denied it. What I believe is an idol is of no significance. What God says is idolatry in scripture certainly is relevant and defines exactly what Catholics do.
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