Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary

The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

[RnMomof7]

You are thinking as a human thinks, and not as God thinks.

And How do YOU know how God "thinks?

[CynicalBear]

>>I don’t see how various attributes of Mary deny the sovereignty of Christ<<

Well, I’ll tell ya. There is no one other than Christ on this earth who was sinless. There is no one we need to go to but Christ. He is our only high priest. Mary does not now, nor did she ever have the attributes Catholics ascribe to her. Giving attributes to Mary that are Christ’s alone is blasphemy.

[Natural Law]

"And How do YOU know how God "thinks?"

No one knows the mind of God, but He has given us, through His Revealed Word, a limited understanding of His perspective. We must all make presumptions in order that we may walk as Jesus walked (1 John 2:6). What is sure is that it is far easier to conclude what is incompatible with His thoughts than what is.

Sursem Corda

[RnMomof7]

Well, I’ll tell ya. There is no one other than Christ on this earth who was sinless. There is no one we need to go to but Christ. He is our only high priest. Mary does not now, nor did she ever have the attributes Catholics ascribe to her. Giving attributes to Mary that are Christ’s alone is blasphemy.

No where does scripture attribute sinlessness, or any authority to her ...no where does it affirm the Catholics doctrine on her, suggest that she be prayed to or that she was anything more than a woman chosen to be the human mother of God made man ..and mostly she does not claim any special position for herself..

[RnMomof7]

Salvation asked met mom how she knew the mind of God... so you would agree with me that surely Salvation does not either..so her defense of Rc marilogy is nothing more than her personal opinion

[CynicalBear]

>> I’ll pray only to God as Jesus taught us, thank you.<<

Amen, Amen and Amen!! Just as Jesus taught.

>> No need to waste time praying to dead people who can’t help me in disobedience to Jesus’ teaching.<<

Putting people in place of Christ will have dire consequences.

[Natural Law]

"There is no one other than Christ on this earth who was sinless."

Every mother, including the Blessed Virgin, are colonized by millions of embryonic stem cells from the baby in her womb. These cells remain with her for her entire life. Mary's body literally contained parts of the literal body of Christ. That Mary was sinless and incorrupt as Jesus was sinless and incorrupt and like Jesus ascended into heaven, Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul makes perfect sense, but I never needed proof.

"Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”" - John 20:29.

Peace be with you.

[RnMomof7]

The Immaculate Conception is all about Jesus. A pure womb for him in the Ark of the New Covenant.

Why did Jesus NEED a pure womb?Where are we told that in scripture? He did not shrink from sinful men

He came to walk in a sinful would, to get his feet dirty, to eat with drunkards and thieves..

I think xzins missed your reference to the "ark of the covenant" being ..NOT A TYPE OF CHRIST.. but a type of Mary ..just one more error of Rome The Mercy seat sits atop the ark... so if She was the ark, she is the one that issues judgement This kind of teaching shows the perversion of scripture and how it is passed on. The entire OT Bible is about Christ. All of the "types" are pointing to Christ.

[Natural Law]

"so you would agree with me that surely Salvation does not either"

We only know what has been revealed to us through Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture and in a very few instances private revelation. Salvation's defense of Mariology may not contained the phrasing I would have chosen, but it was perfectly valid.

Peace be with you.

[RnMomof7]

Most people with passing knowledge of this jerk's biography know this. Martin Luther married Katharina von Bora,one of 12 nuns he had helped escape from the Nimbschen Cistercian convent in April 1523, when he arranged for them to be smuggled out in herring barrels.

Only a Catholic would calling marring someone fornication.. LOL...What do you call raping little boys? A Sacrament??

[CynicalBear]

>>Every mother, including the Blessed Virgin, are colonized by millions of embryonic stem cells from the baby in her womb. These cells remain with her for her entire life. Mary's body literally contained parts of the literal body of Christ.<<

So you finally admit that you believe that Mary is God!

[CynicalBear]

See post 291

[BlueDragon]

Your last post reveals much. Champion or dupe. How about spark plug? And the methane-like gasses were dense enough to ignite, and the flames spread. Luther did not cause the concentration of the flammable gasses in the first place. Those had been building up for some time...

"... but Luther could not have publicly opposed the Church had the Renaissance not created a political environment for a public opposition."

The charter was to go and preach the Gospel to every creature, not go and seek to CONTROL every creature using the gospel, and the powers of Church "authority", combined with powers of State, sending armies at times to KILL those whom would not bow the knee towards Rome's claim to authority, and prostrate themselves to the tender mercies of the Latin church, be those what they may... (with the winning generals amongst the armies divvying the land, real estate, and wealth).

That last is doing it Islam style, and that's how it was (at times) done in centuries prior to Luther.

yeah, the Latin church wanted Luther hanged or burned, but by then had lost some of the pull they once had over German princes, to have them do that dirty work for them. Is this the Renaissance you speak of? A renewal of freedom of conscience? If so, it reveals much as to the true nature of things doesn't it?

[RnMomof7]

We only know what has been revealed to us through Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture and in a very few instances private revelation. Salvation's defense of Mariology may not contained the phrasing I would have chosen, but it was perfectly valid.

But YOU and Sal,CANNOT know that because you have to wait until the Pope tells you what God thinks

I found her entire post interesting, showing a complete lack of scriptural understanding and then pointing to metmom .

Sal God did just not "know" that Jesus was going to die on the cross..HE ORDAINED IT BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN..ask Peter...(Acts 2:23)(Acts 4 :26-28)

[Natural Law]

"So you finally admit that you believe that Mary is God!"

Every first year philosophy student knows that while mu body is mine, I am not my body's. Mary was no exception. Contained within her body was a Real physical Presence of Jesus. For a Catholic that is not hard to comprehend or accept. We do not worship Mary, we venerate her. Once you become familiar with the words dulia, hyperdulia and latria and their meanings you will not make those foolish statements about what Catholics and I do and do not believe.

Peace be with you

[RnMomof7]

Ohhh Mercy..May God open eyes to see the blasphemy

[boatbums]

And, as promised, here are Luther's words IN CONTEXT:

From http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/01/luther-i-confess-that-i-cannot-forbid.html

In a 1526 letter, Luther stated:

As regards the other matter, my faithful warning and advice is that no man, Christians in particular, should have more than one wife, not only for the reason that offense would be given, and Christians must not needlessly give, but most diligently avoid giving, offense, but also for the reason that we have no word of God regarding this matter on which we might base a belief that such action would be well-pleasing to God and to Christians. Let heathen and Turks do what they please. Some of the ancient fathers had many wives, but they were urged to this by necessity, as Abraham and Jacob, and later many kings, who according to the law of Moses obtained the wives of their friends, on the death of the latter, as an inheritance. The example of the fathers is not a sufficient argument to convince a Christian: he must have, in addition, a divine word that makes him sure, just as they had a word of that kind from God. For where there was no need or cause, the ancient fathers did not have more than one wife, as Isaac, Joseph, Moses, and many others. For this reason I cannot advise for, but must advise against, your intention, particularly since you are a Christian, unless there were an extreme necessity, as, for instance, if the wife were leprous or the husband were deprived of her for some other reason. On what grounds to forbid other people such marriages I know not" (21a, 900 f.) This letter effected that the Landgrave did not carry out his intention, but failing, nevertheless, to lead a chaste life, he did not commune, except once in extreme illness, because of his accusing conscience." ( Luther Examined and Reexamined: A Review of Catholic Criticism and a Plea for Reevaluation (St Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1917, 103-104).

W.H.T. Dau points out that Catholics should use caution in this charge against Luther:

"Ought not this remark of the Landgrave caution Luther's Catholic critics to be very careful in what they say about the heinousness of Luther's offense in granting a dispensation from a moral precept? Have they really no such thing as a "dispensation" at Rome? Has not the married relationship come up for "dispensation" in the chancelleries of the Vatican innumerable times? Has not one of the canonized saints of Rome, St. Augustine, declared that bigamy might be permitted if a wife was sterile? Was not concubinage still recognized by law in the sixteenth century in Ireland? Did not King Diarmid have two legitimate wives and two concubines? And he was a Catholic. What have Catholics to say in rejoinder to Sir Henry Maine's assertion that the Canon Law of their Church brought about numerous sexual inequalities? Or to Joseph MacCabe's statement that not until 1060 was there any authoritative mandate of the Church against polygamy, and that even after this prohibition there were numerous instances of concubinage and polygamic marriages in Christian communities? Or to Hallam in his Middle Ages, where he reports concubinage in Europe? Or to Lea, who proves that this evil was not confined to the laity? (See Gallighan, Women under Polygamy, pp. 43. 292. 295. 303. 330. 339.) ( Luther Examined and Reexamined: A Review of Catholic Criticism and a Plea for Reevaluation (St Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1917, 106)

My conclusion? Catholics chastising Luther with this quote tend to make it mean more than was intended. Luther was not an "out-and-out believer in polygamy." For Luther, it was an exception. Do I agree with Luther? not at all, I would argue that even his exception is wrong, and that a case for monogamy can be made from the Bible. Once again, we find Catholics taking a very minor point made by Luther, and blowing it out proportion.

[RnMomof7]

Ohhh Mercy..May God open eyes to see the blasphemy

[RnMomof7]

Ohhh Mercy..May God open eyes to see the blasphemy

[RnMomof7]

Every mother, including the Blessed Virgin, are colonized by millions of embryonic stem cells from the baby in her womb. These cells remain with her for her entire life. Mary's body literally contained parts of the literal body of Christ. That Mary was sinless and incorrupt as Jesus was sinless and incorrupt and like Jesus ascended into heaven, Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul makes perfect sense, but I never needed proof.

Really ?? I must have missed that little factoid in school ...so you are trying to tell us that Jesus always lived in Mary??..

It is interesting that your jesus leaves the bread before it hits the bowl..but lived in Mary womb...

Its a good thing you do not need proof... cause there is none