Posted on 04/29/2012 3:06:06 PM PDT by NYer
Right back at you, my brother in Christ. 8~)
Maybe justify isn't the right word.
Christ's work on the cross justifies us. Our good works of faith illustrate our ongoing sanctification by the Holy Spirit.
"Justify" is one of those words we need to protect the real meaning of lest Rome rewrite everything important, like grace and forgiveness and mediator.
The entire New Testament is Christ telling His family they have been forgiven their sins by the grace of God through faith in Christ.
RCs don’t have this assurance. Instead they return to the Lord’s Supper and ask forgiveness for the week’s sins, over and over and over.
Rome concocted penance (ongoing forgiveness with strings attached) to keep its members thethered to Rome.
RC admit they have no assurance of forgiveness. Very sad. Therefore RCs do not understand the New Testament. Practically every other line Christ spoke is “Your sins have been forgiven.”
Christ knows. I know. You should know, too. Not to believe Jesus shows a distrust of Christ’s promises.
And as far as future sins being forgiven, I and all believers have been bought with a great price and our sins have been marked “paid in full.”.
Of course my future sins have been forgiven and this gracious fact compels me to want to sin less and less. The RCC has no understanding of sanctification.
Once justified, always justified. The RCC can think it can renege on its promises but Christ never does.
The RCC misses so much.
Sin without consequence is not in the Bible. However, that arrogant and misguided belief certainly explains those who mistreat those with whom they disagree. I will continue to pray for a conversion of your heart.
"For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality." - Colossians 3:25
"Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.” Yet you do not know [h]what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, “ If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. - James 4:11-17
Sorry, I should have included one of your posts in that listing for clarity. ;-)
Peace be with you.
The depravity of man and grace in Christ by which the unGodly are justified (Rm. 4:5) must indeed be stressed, However as said (and needs to be in this superficial age), there is more than one kind of faith, and as 1John and multiples texts reveal, and reformers taught, justifying faith is a faith that will and does effect obedience towards its Object, which includes repentance when convicted of not doing so. Belief that does not affect change our life is not faith but fantasy.
Moreover, while the elect are accounted righteous by faith and are the children of God, yet because they are children and faith must be true, thus God chastens them to repentance, if need be, that they be not condemned with the rest of the world, (1Cor. 11:32) as apostates. (Gal. 5:1-14; Heb. 10:39-39)
And in contrast to sins that are past, what we do as believers will be rewarded or suffer loss, not in some purgatory commencing at death, but at the judgment seat of Christ at His return.
The error of Rome here is not simply statements in her plethora of pronouncements which foster hope of eternal life partly based on having morally earned it (which is also true in institutionalized Protestantism), but effectually promoting faith in herself to eventually obtain Heaven for the most nominal of Catholics, including abortion and homosexual promoting pols.
Way to keep people in bondage to a church.
Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
There is no freedom when you have to keep jumping through the hoops to earn salvation which God Himself tells us is a gift, freely given, free to take.
Note the operative word here.... "free".....
We HAVE eternal life - now. It is our possession - now.
Praise God who gave us eternal life and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son He loves.
God’s children are chastized and corrected for their sins as part of their sanctification, but they are never punished because (and how do RCs miss this?) Christ has taken on the burden of paying for every one of the sins of His sheep.
RCs just don’t comprehend what Christ has done for them. They foolishly think they’re paying a debt that’s already been marked “paid in full.”
Did Christ pay for your sins or not?
When Christ carried His cross were your sins nailed to it or not? Does Christ "receive the consequences" of our sins?
Wow, way to take a verse out of context.
That whole passage is not about salvation or salvation by works.
Colossians 3:1-25 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. 22 Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.
Cherry picking Bible verses to support Catholic doctrine fail.
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 ( referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
Then you understand neither forgiveness or mercy.
While there are plenty of examples of consequence of sin in Scripture, it's usually earthly consequence, not a loss of salvation like Catholicism teaches.
Catholicism makes so much of salvation conditional on works that nobody can ever be sure if they're coming or going.
It makes a mockery of the finished work of Christ on the cross.
As a logical matter, how can Luther’s doctrine of “the Bible ALONE” be the sole rule of faith, when it isn’t in the Bible?
As a logical matter how can much of Catholic doctrine stand when it isn't in the Bible?
Like *Sacred Tradition* being of equal standing with, God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Scripture?
Like the alleged sinlessness of Mary and her alleged perpetual virginity?
What about purgatory?
What about praying to Mary and the saints?
I’ve never argued for Luther’s doctrine of the Bible alone so are you asking as a rhetorical question?
But if you wish to argue logic.....I would begin with a simple question: If one is to rely on tradition, where did these traditions come from?
The Church preceded the Bible. Jesus refers to His Church in the gospels —the church which the gates of hell would not prevail against.
After Pentecost, the apostles were preaching the gospel authoritatively, “by word of mouth or by letter.” They were making disciples of all the nations, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
Yet the last book of the Bible wouldn’t be written for another 70 years after Pentecost. The Bible simply couldn’t be the sole rule of faith in the early church, because the New Testament did not yet exist.
A consensus regarding which books constitutde Sacred Scripture took even longer. The first local councils to defined the canon of Scripture occurred around the year 400 A.D. The final Canon of Scripture was determined by the Council of Trent 1100 years later.
Moreover, prior to the invention of the printing press, the doctrine of “The Bible Alone” was completely impractical, since hand-copied Bibles were extremely rare, costing the equivalent of a year’s wages, which is why Bibles were often chained to pulpits.
The invention of the printing press made Luther’s doctrine practically possible.
Historically, there is no record of “the Bible alone” doctrine prior to Luther. Logically, if one rejects the infallible teaching authority of the Church which wrote, preserved and canonize the Bible, then one must consider the Bible to be errant.
So you believe that according to SS, only the Bible can be used to determine doctrine, versus that Scripture alone is the assuredly infallible rule of faith, and while other sources and things which it provides for may be used, yet Scripture functionally is the supreme judge of all truth claims, and that this supremacy is not seen in Scripture?
And is your argument is that since there was no infallible canon, and since Scripture is open to interpretation, then an assuredly infallible interpreter (Rome) was necessary in order to preserve and provide assurance of truth, and establish writings as Scripture, and act as the supreme authority on truth?
Hope to post back tomorrow, God willing.
Thank you for your very detailed and instructive post concerning the pretend “canon” the Roman Catholic Church says it decided. I am keeping this for further reference though I doubt some will be convinced no matter how much scholarship is presented to them. No matter...only the Lord can open their spiritual eyes. Your hard work is not in vain. God bless you brother in Christ!
“The Church preceded the Bible. Jesus refers to His Church in the gospels —the church which the gates of hell would not prevail against.”
Not so much. When Paul reasoned with and converted some of the Thessalonians he used “the Scriptures” which, at least, would been the Hebrew Scriptures.
So it would be more correct to say the church preceded the Bible as we have it today.
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