Posted on 04/13/2012 4:35:34 PM PDT by stpio
Again, that Woman loses the battle...She doesn't crush the head of Satan...
The serpent battles the Nation of Israel, the Woman...And not only that; you have a ringside seat to watch the battle...The Woman, Israel is about to take on the serpent...Keep your eyes on the News...
The woman said to be clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and twelve stars are symbols drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which Joseph ”dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.” (Genesis 37:9)
The sun represented Jacob (Israel) and the moon Rachel, and the stars representing his brothers, the patriarchs of Israel, all of which bow down to him. Thus Jacob said, “Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?” The 12 stars on the woman’s head represents the 12 patriarchs, “and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” (Rm. 9:5)
The Old Testament’s prophets also referred to Israel as a “woman” (Is. 54:5-6; Jer. 4:31; Micah 4:9-10).
Which position is what their own stamped notes in their own official American bible states:
[12:1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Gn 37:9–10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13–17); cf. Is 50:1; 66:7; Jer 50:12.
“How come the “woman” battles with the serpent in Revelation, Chapter 12? Why doesn’t it say “It” or the masculine “He”, why aren’t we reading the serpent battles the “man” Jesus?
“Again, that Woman loses the battle...She doesn’t crush the head of Satan...
The serpent battles the Nation of Israel, the Woman...And not only that; you have a ringside seat to watch the battle...The Woman, Israel is about to take on the serpent...Keep your eyes on the News””...
~ ~ ~
Iscool, the “woman” wins the battle.
Sharing again, sometimes, a Scripture verse stands for more than one thing. Above all meanings the “woman” in Revelation 12 is Mary. Why do you think Our Lord addresses His mother as “woman” in the Gospel?
You are ignoring this fact and claiming the “’woman” is
Israel not Mary. An example, private interpretation of Scripture is heresy. You have no authority. The Church canonized Scripture, God gave the authority to interpret Scripture to the Church. Makes sense. Read the footnotes of the Douay-Rheims Bible, they are help to understand the correct interpretation,...from the Church.
There is not one verse in the Bible that conflicts with another if you go by the Church, her interpretation of Scripture.
Revelation 12:13
And when the DRAGON saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the WOMAN, who brought forth the man child:
How did Israel or the Church give birth to Christ? Again, they didn’t Mary did. Reply to verse Rev 12:13.
Amen, while the official Roman Catholic Bible for America translates this,
“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; They will strike at your head, while you strike at their heel.”
The official American Catholic Bible, while while briefly explaining that one view is that Mary is to be the one who crushes, states in its notes,
“The snake was identified with the devil (Wis 2:24; Jn 8:44; Rev 12:9; 20:2), whose eventual defeat seemed implied in the verse. Because “the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil” (1 Jn 3:8), the passage was understood as the first promise of a redeemer for fallen humankind, the protoevangelium. Irenaeus of Lyons (ca. A.D. 130–200), in his Against Heresies 5.21.1, followed by several other Fathers of the Church, interpreted the verse as referring to Christ, and cited Gal 3:19 and 4:4 to support the reference. http://www.usccb.org/bible/genesis/3
The Latin Vulgate, the first Bible says “she” not “He” or “It.”
The scripture was not initially written in Latin...
Everything is by God’s power, His Will, no on disagrees. It is by Christ’s power that Mary crushes the head of the serpent. If you say no, you have to explain...
“In the first part of the chapter you guys claim that the Woman is Mary...Mary then ran away and hid in the wilderness...No crushing Satan there...
And now all of a sudden the same Woman is the last of the chapter is the Roman Catholic Church”...
~ ~ ~
Iscool,
Yes, the original writings were not in Latin, they were
translated into Latin by St. Jerome because Latin was the
common language of the time.
You’re not understanding Iscool. There can be more than
one meaning for a verse but above all, predominately “Mary”
is the “woman” in Genesis 3:15, the same “woman” Our Lord
speaks of in the Gospel in addressing His mother and Mary
is the “woman” in Revelation 12.
John describes the New Ark of the Covenant in Heaven in the
last verse of Revelation, Chapter 11. Who would that be,
it is Mary. John is preparing you for the first verse in Chapter 12.
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
Mary is in Heaven with her Son. Israel isn’t in Heaven
with Our Lord. Replace Israel in verse 12:1:
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A ISRAEL clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
Doesn’t fit, Mary is the predominate meaning of the “woman.” The changes made to translations of Genesis 3:15 from the original, the Vulgate...saying “He” and “It” are wrong.
Waiting for the post to be revealed with bated breath."
LOL. Yes...still waiting.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"
Thank you for posting these passages. The clarity of Scripture is arresting. What possesses anyone to cling to anything other than the precious Lamb provided by God?
As very few verses of Scripture have been “infallibly” defined by Rome, the RC has great liberty to interpret Scripture to support her traditions of men, and some are more “Catholic” than her scholars, such as those who adamantly insistent that the women of Rv. 12 must be Mary, and which is consistent with the hyper exaltation given to the Catholic Mary (versus the holy humble handmaid of the Lord in Scripture).
These lay apologists will sometimes demand stamped material from Rome, but when it does not support their absolutism with its rejection that the women can be the people of God, Israel (which best fits the typology and Rm. 9:5) and then the church, they will reject it as well.
Having shown what the NAB states in support of the people of God being the women, the conservative Catholic Haydock comments,
Ver. 1. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. -— A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady[the Virgin Mary].
The Church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet; and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. (Challoner) -— Under the figure of a woman and of a dragon, are represented the various attempts of Satan to undermine the Church. -— On her head....twelve stars, her doctrine being delivered by the twelve apostles and their successors. (Witham)
Ver. 2. With child, &c., to signify that the Church, even in the time of persecutions, brought forth children to Christ. (Witham) -— It likewise signifies the difficulties which obstructed the first propagation of Christianity. (Pastorini)
Ver. 3. Another wonder in heaven; that is, in the Church of Christ, though revealed to St. John, in the visions, as if they were seen in heaven. -— A great red dragon; a fiery dragon, with seven heads and ten horns; i.e. many heads and many horns. By the dragon is generally understood the devil, (see ver. 7 and 9) and by the heads and horns, kings and princes, who act under him, persecuting the servants of God. (Witham) -— Dragon, &c. the devil; and by the seven heads and ten horns, are meant those princes and governors who persecute the Church of Christ. (Calmet)
Ver. 6. The woman fled into the wilderness. The Church, in the times of persecutions, must be content to serve God in a private manner; - http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id298.html
Also, http://www.the-highway.com/matt24_Woodrow4.html
http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Mary.html#Revelation
“The modern Mariologists like to turn to [Revelation 12], seeing in it an allegory of the Virgin Mary. But whatever can be thought of their interpretation, it is a fact that none of the early interpreters before the end of the fourth century see the Virgin Mary in the woman of the Revelation. They all understand her to be the Church and so they continue to make most of their interpretations in the following centuries. Ticonius is the first to suggest the Marian interpretation” [Giovanni Miegge, The Virgin Mary (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1955, pp.101-102)]. - http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/02/revelation-12.html
cf. http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3213
You can post all the links you want, it is obvious many non-Catholic Christians are anti-Mary. Luther wasn’t but
the anti-Marian comes from the revolt to distance non-Catholic Christianity from the faith, Roman Catholicism.
I keep asking and you and others will not reply, the Church and Israel are secondary, the “woman” in Genesis and the “woman” in Revelation, Chapter 12 is Mary.
Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Church didn’t and neither
did Israel. Now please answer concerning Revelation 12:13.
John is speaking of Mary, the royal person (the mother of the son is Queen in Scripture) of Revelation 12:1, preparing you in the last verse of Chapter 11, Revelation 11:19. Mary is the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven. She carried God inside her.
Rev 11:19
And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, and voices, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Please put prejudice aside and look at Our Lord’s words.
Why does Our Lord repeatedly call Mary “woman” in the
Gospel? His last words, He used “woman” in addressing His mother from the Cross.
Mary is the “woman” in Genesis 3:15 and in Revelation, Chapter
12.
God knows the whole plan, from beginning to end.
Excellent points as usual. Thx for the pings.
"You can post all the links you want..." - and more texts than that - from RC sources that refute your assertion that "the Church and Israel are secondary, the “woman” in Genesis and the “woman” in Revelation, Chapter 12 is Mary", but you assert the church cannot be the primary application. Even the as for the notes of the Douay-Rheims Bible, which you affirm helps to understand the correct interpretation from the Church (though that is not your official American Bible), gives “The church of God” as the primary interpretation!
So here you are, arguing Scripture as a private Catholic apologist, while other and more credentialed RCs disagree with you (and sometimes with each other), while Scripture is not your supreme authority, but is a means to an end of submission to Rome, and whose Traditions do not depend upon the weight of scriptural warrant.
As for your interpretation of Rv. 12, that John is speaking of Mary, and the Ark of the covenant (which some RCs see the Church as being), that is simply your interpretation, rather than Christ, who is the One the apostles so often taught was the fulfillment of typology, and not Mary, who is overall rather marginal in the gospels.
And as explained,
The woman said to be clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, and twelve stars are symbols drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which Joseph ”dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.” (Genesis 37:9)
The sun represented Jacob (Israel) and the moon Rachel, and the stars representing his brothers, the patriarchs of Israel, all of which bow down to him. Thus Jacob said, “Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?” The 12 stars on the woman’s head represents the 12 patriarchs, “and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” (Rm. 9:5)
The Old Testament’s prophets also referred to Israel as a “woman” (Is. 54:5-6; Jer. 4:31; Micah 4:9-10).
In addition, the women gave birth in pain, something RCs disallow of Mary, and some even disallow that she broke her hymen. Which is just one of the numerous exceptions which they must prove, but fail to do, though the practice of the Holy Spirit is to make such manifest, as instead such Marian claims are from Tradition, not Scripture.
Furthermore, as regards the parroted "You have no authority. The Church canonized Scripture, God gave the authority to interpret Scripture to the Church" mantra, (post 103) the reality is that such was the premise of the Jewish leaders in demanding, like Roman Catholics, of a certain itinerant preacher,
By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?” (see Mk. 11:27-33)
The preachers did not have the sanction of the historical heavyweights, who, unlike Rome, had clearly stated authority, (Mt. 23:2), but like Rome, presumed a level of assured veracity and perpetuation based on Divine promises and historical decent above that which Scripture afforded them, and thus like Rome, they also presumed to teach the mere "tradition of the elders" as doctrine.
And thus they objected to John the Baptist saying God could raise up children to Abraham from stones, (Mt. 3:9) and of the Christ of whom he preached, and who called them "blind guides."
So why would seekers of Truth follow this itinerant preacher from Nazareth who turned over the tables of power? How did He establish His claims?
The answer is that, in contrast to the powers that be, the Lord Jesus established His claims on Scripture, in word and in the manifest power of God it affirms being given to the Truth, as did the apostles and early church. ( Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12)
And Scripture is abundantly evidenced to be the standard for obedience and for testing truth claims.
And the most critical aspect of this basis of authority is that the of the gospel of grace, and manifest regeneration by repentant faith in it, and which kind of living effectual faith the church relies upon for its members and for storming the gates of Hell.
And which affirms that the church is that of the living God, (1Tim. 1:15) versus the self declaration of its institutionalized counterpart, "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. " (1 Cori. 4:20) and by "manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." (2 Corinthians 4:2)
As for the "we gave you the Bible=only we have authority to interpret it" (stewardship=assured infallibility) polemic, besides Rome not having an infallible, indisputable canon until the year Luther died — over 1400 year after the last book was written — that also nukes the church, as unlike the church of Rome, Scripture specifically affirms Israel was the instrument and steward of Holy Writ;
and that most of the Divine Writing were established as Scripture before there ever was a church in Rome, and that Truth was preserved with an assuredly infallible magisterium, contrary to the premise Rome presumes to justify herself.
And like as God can raise up children to Abraham from stones, so He can raise up stones who, like Peter, effectually confess the Lord Jesus, and continue to build His church of the regenerated, even when the outwardly is more form than substance. And i need more of the latter myself.
What you said.
Amen!
Correction, in next to last paragraph, read “withOUT an assuredly infallible magisterium, contrary to the premise Rome presumes to justify herself.”
A speed reading mom!
You posted to yourself, which is fitting as you again assert that we are acting out of prejudice, yet it is you who reject the majority of RC authorities who have no problem seeing the women as the church (Israel was the people of God first), while your interpretation has no more official authority than that of another lay RC apologist.
You are also placing undo emphasis on the word “woman,” which John also used to refer to other women, including the Samaritan women, (Jn. 4:21) and the woman caught in adultery (Jn. 8:10), and Mary Magdalene (Jn. 20:15) and the adulterous women of Rev. 17.Which is unlikely to be an individual.
Yep...Amen to that...
But you don't.
Do you think this is Mary, also?
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
“You posted to yourself, which is fitting as you again assert that we are acting out of prejudice, yet it is you who reject the majority of RC authorities who have no problem seeing the women as the church (Israel was the people of God first), while your interpretation has no more official authority than that of another lay RC apologist.
You are also placing undo emphasis on the word “woman,” which John also used to refer to other women, including the Samaritan women, (Jn. 4:21) and the woman caught in adultery (Jn. 8:10), and Mary Magdalene (Jn. 20:15) and the adulterous women of Rev. 17.Which is unlikely to be an individual.”
~ ~ ~
Okay, I should of typed To: All. So snippy daniel.
You are biased, the Church teaches it is Mary above other meanings which can be the Church but the Church is secondary according to your “the majority of RC authorities.” Actually, it’s all of them. Why are you supporting in your words, the “RC authorities” as you say on this subject when you reject Catholicism and the Real presence? What happened to their authority (Apostolic authority) in regards to the Eucharist?
And your very weak, it is weak, argument of too much importance on the word “woman”...stick to the subject and verses, the “woman” in Genesis 3:15 and the “woman” in Revelation 12. Count how many times “woman” is written in Revelation 12. I believe it is eight times.
It was an “individual” who brought forth an individual, the “man child”, Jesus Christ. It wasn’t the Church or the nation of Israel so it is “likely” the “woman” is Mary.
This is why no will discuss Revelation 12:13 or reply to
why Our Lord keeps addressing Mary as the “woman.”
You have got to come to the truth, Mary is Queen of Heaven
and earth, the reason the description of the “woman” in Revelation 12:1 sounds royal.
It wasn’t you specifically who rejected Mary, it was some
of the men who rejected the Church in the 16th century and after.
4th time I ask about Revelation 12:13.
Correct. Also, the passage in Genesis isn't talking about Mary at all - the one whom God puts at "enmity" between the serpent (Satan). It, like the passage in Revelation which speaks of the woman in labor that Satan (the dragon) pursues into the wilderness, is speaking of Israel. Jesus comes from the Jews and Satan has ALWAYS been at enmity with them. His design is always to thwart God's plan of redemption.
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