Posted on 03/11/2012 4:27:55 PM PDT by Heart-Rest
Thanks for the time building the post.
A lot of work, Very Good.
God Bless
“Issue 3 - The Biblical Basis for the Catholic teaching concerning the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist.”
The claim of core doctrine in question is outright full transubstantiation - conversion of bread and wine into literal flesh and blood. We are blessed with objective senses, and all plainly know this does not happen - ergo the doctrine is absurd. A spiritual conversion, perhaps; metaphor, at least; physical change, no.
Oh, I agree. I guess my first sentence of approval was a bit too short.
I’m a Catholic myself. Born and bred an Episcopalian, but converted while at Harvard (not their intention, needless to say).
In my later years in academia, I worked closely with Evangelicals, and we agreed to disagree about certain theological matters, while working together on what we could agree on. We took turns saying grace before meetings, and I never heard anything I couldn’t say “Amen” to.
Every christian denomination including the catholic church church confesses Apostolic authorship for the NT.
Why would you ask me to go to the trouble of citing proofs for every book to you when all orthodox churches confess their authenticity? I don't see how a discussion of textual evidence for authorship here is relevant.
“Issue 4 - The Catholic Church teaches the worship of Mary.”
Praying to a spiritual being, asking favors thereof, expressing adoration, exhalting thereof, kneeling before a sanctified representation, and otherwise engaging in behaviors indistinguishable from worship is, well, indistinguishable from worship. It’s worship. Asking for help is one thing (and praying to the deceased is itself a highly debatable concept); praising the glory thereof is something condemned.
“I confess I did not read all you posted (no one is going to)”
Well you were wrong on this point, I read the whole post. Maybe you error somewhere else?
Never-the-less God Bless!
To understand transubstantiation—as far as it can be understood—you need to brush up on Aristotelian philosophy and Thomistic theology, having to do with substance and accidents.
Obviously it is miraculous, but God is capable of changing the true inner substance while maintaining the accidental outward appearance.
If Jesus’s words, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you shall not have life within you” were merely metaphorical, then it is hard to explain why many of his disciples walked away and left him when they heard that. They took it literally. And if that was a mistake, then why would Jesus let them walk away on a misunderstanding?
Why do it every day? Is not the blood of Christ sufficient to erase all sins past present and future? Can one lose grace and salvation? I was washed in the blood of Christ when I came to him with a broken heart, on bent knee. When Christ said on the cross “it is finished” He mean’t just that, his blood paid the price forever for those who shall receive it.
That ignores the meaning of substance or that the accidents of the bread and wine do not change. Were you able to travel back in time to Jerusalem in 33AD with all of the best forensic instruments and techniques known to man and were to encounter Jesus you would not be able to differentiate His human nature from His divine nature through any test using human senses. Next will you tell us that no one is born again because you do do not have a scientific test to prove it?
“Issue 6 - The Catholic Church advocates and employs meaningless repetitious prayers.”
Well, it does. Repeating a stanza over and over, on the order of hours, with little if any other context, is exactly that. Nowhere did Christ or the followers do or advocate such behavior, but instead condemned it.
“elicit the help of a dead Christian? “
Is he the God of the Living? If so then how can the Saints be dead?
I have been thinking on two thoughts in all this.
First: “But why doest thou judge thy brother? for we[that is Christians]shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.” (Romans 14:10)
Second: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
One of my favorite verses about the Church is in Ephesians 5:25: “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it.”
I’m so thankful God In Christ never made savlation complicated but gave us: “To as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.” (John 1:12)
And in John 3:17-18: “For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed on the only begotten Son of God.”
Romans 10:13 says: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Jesus said: “It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63)
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14)
Peter wrote: “”Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptable, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.” (1 Peter 1:23)
Again Peter wrote: Moreover, I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in rememberance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honour and glory, when there was such a voice to Him from the excellent glory, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount. We have a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not of old by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1:15-21
Let us go back to “work out your own salvation” (Phil. 2:12c) and read: “Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)
The we read: “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” (Phil. 2:13)
Yes, I am fully persauded that “Once in Christ, in Christ Forever.” Jesus said I know My sheep. “ My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish,neither any man pluck them out of My hand.” (John 10:27-28)
When Jesus told those in Matthew 7 [that told Him what many wonderful works in His name] Jesus told them “I never knew you” (Matt. 7:22-23)
We know Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Light and He will never lie. “He said, I know My sheep, and My sheep know Me.”
“Let everything that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. (Psalm 150:6)
“Issue 7 - The Catholic Church does not place any or much emphasis at all on the Bible.”
In light of the other Issues posted, seems great contortions are pursued to avoid or contradict the plain meaning and application of clear scriptures.
Exactly. And from whence does this power of spirituaa rebirth come?
Only God.
So the real question is whether, in all of human history, God has made spiritually reborn only people of one religion - or not. If not, then particular religious differences are not as important as they claim to be, and a far deeper connection with God is all that matters.
A Catholic will say over 1 million Hail Marys in their life time.
People were constantly withdrawing from Jesus because they misunderstood Him...they make that "mistake" all the time.
He did not chase those who did; in fact, he said over and over again in various situations that not all would accept what He said.
Wow...and Heart Rest in his posting says that Protestants are wrong when we accuse Catholics of Mary worship...
(”I use to have to knee before a statue of Mary, pray, sing and praise her.
Daily, Daily Sing to Mary
Daily, daily sing to Mary,
Sing, my soul, her praises due.
All her feasts, her actions worship
With the heart’s devotion true.
Lost in wond’ring contemplation,
Be her Majesty confess’d.
Call her Mother, call her Virgin,
Happy Mother, Virgin blest.”)
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