Posted on 01/11/2012 7:34:56 PM PST by RnMomof7
Excuse me but that is EXACTLY what you siad in post 356.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2831799/posts?page=356#356
In Luke Chapter 9 Verse 28 Jesus himself prays to Moses and Elijah (saints) for them to join him and they do on the mountaintop.
And you didn't say He was praying WITH them and neither does Scripture. Scripture says that He was talking to them.
Not kidding - that was the purpose of Jesus’ incarnation - to reveal God to us and to redeem us.
You do believe that Jesus is God right?
So you believe God died, eh?
On the contrary, it seems like his number two objective is to convince the world that Mary, that she being ever virgin, and believing that she is the mother of GOD, is important to salvation.
The only thing necessary to believe about Mary is that she was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth. That fulfills the prophecy and is all that's important.
These are MY ideas & should be understood as such. I do NOT have the SAME authority to speak for the Church in the same manner as a Priest. = Just as an ordinary citizen of the USA doesn't have the same authority as a President, Congressman, Judge, Ambassador & such.
In the Catechism of the Catholic Church such as paragraph 105: ‘For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age...’ = The term Holy Mother Church is used by the Catholic Church as a self description. The term probably started when the Church members started writing things down.
I'm sure the Priests use the term ‘Our’ Church to emphasis that we are ALL part of the Church.
It is easy to understand why the term is used. Eve is called the mother of all Living. (Gen3:20) & The Church is called the ‘Bride of Christ’ through out Scripture. The Church enters Heaven as the Bride of Christ see Revelations.
We as Christians are made >alive in Christ (1Cor15:22) Christ said to Peter, ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ Matt16:18. It has been the Church as the visible body of Jesus Christ that has transmitted the Faith. Out of the Church came the Bible. The Church administers ALL the sacraments.
This is from a Protestant Bible (NIV) because I didn't want it to thought of as ‘only’ a Catholic verse. 2Peter1: 20-21, ‘First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.’
We know Christ built a Church & it was built on Peter. We also know the Holy Spirit descended on the Church on Pentecost Sunday. Our Faith comes to us through the Church. Many Protestants think ‘they’ receive a message from God that is different from what is taught by the Catholic Church. Joseph Smith said he actually saw God & spoke with him face to face.
True Humility in this world must include the willingness to accept your 'place' in this world. There is only one Church & one Pope. Sometimes in my heart, I lack true-Charity & I want to say to Protestants, 'Who elected you Pope?; I don't see no Pope hat on your head.; Are you getting messages straight from God or are you making things up?; How does God speak to you?; Are you listening to voices in your head or does God actually appear?' I try not to get 'snarky' and just trust that 'Faith comes by hearing & hearing through the Word of God.' >>The Bible tells us there is only One Church. The title: Holy Mother our Church makes sense. Our Church is the mother of all the living because it's the Body of Jesus Christ. Maybe, asking a Priest would be best for an explanation of ‘Holy Mother our Church.’
No it wouldn't. Sheesh, Catholics need to get over thinking that any disagreement with someone doctrine damns them.
Mary's virginity after Jesus' birth has nothing to do with anyone's salvation.
>> What historical event created that “mess”? <<
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No particular event, but a chain of spiritual decay over centuries through replacement of the word of God with oral traditions of deeply sinful men, that led to the total perversion of the word ‘church’ that the so-called Roman Catholic “church” represents.
Most of their daily practices are prohibited by God’s word, yet they proceed (calling men ‘Father,’ repetitive prayers to dead humans, use of prayer beads, idols hung on walls, or in prominant places in the church buildings, people kneeling before those idols to pray to them, etc.)
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I see that the main personal attack to which I was responding is still there glowing red hot.
That’s what prayer constitutes - a spoken or unspoken address to a deity, saint, etc. Talking to a saint in any form is prayer.
Just as God needs nothing from us, the saints — those saved by grace in Christ Jesus, among whom the Church has always held the Virgin Mary as foremost, in that her “yes” to Christ was the means of His Incarnation without which He could not have wrought our salvation on the Cross, and thus of a universal significance that the “yes” to Christ every other saint has offered, offers today or will offer in the future does not have — the saints do not need anything from us, neither titles nor prayers.
The titles exist for us. Among the Orthodox we use lots of titles for different saints to remind us of the evidence or form of their sanctity: the Holy Great-Martyr George (a Great-Martyr is one whose martyrdom led others to accept martyrdom for Christ), the Venerable Bede (”Venerable” indicates one whose sanctity shown chiefly in asceticism), Our Father Among the Saints Raphael of Brooklyn (that title indicates one whose ministry and sanctity involved teaching sound doctrine), the Passion-Bearers Boris and Gleb (that title indicates one whose sanctity was shown in meekly accepting death in a Christ-like manner, but who was not killed for being a Christian), the Fool-for-Christ’s-Sake Xenia of St. Petersburg (one who showed sanctity by an extreme ascesis which the world would mistake for madness), the Holy Apostle and Evangelist John the Theologian (the first titles two are obvious, ‘the Theologian’ is a rare title, indicating great depth of teaching of sound doctrine) and so forth. In this case, though, the title “Theotokos” is chiefly about Jesus, not about Mary, though it, as well as the Nestorian alternative, also reminds us of the evidence and form of her sanctity.
I know you didn’t and I have seen it translated both ways and with a small g as well.
If you are not familiar with the early Eastern Church fathers their language and way of expounding of Scripture will seem very foreign to you. That is why I posted the link so you could see the orthodox Christology of St. Anathasius.
Of course the whole concept of being partakers of the Divine nature and of growing in sanctified grace to become truly holy would be at odds with the teaching on imputed righeteousness and forensic justification. I don’t even know if the idea was even addressed by the Reformers.
It’s irrelevant what Jesus looked like and probably the reason we don’t have any pictures is so that nobody violates the 2nd commandment and makes images to worship.
It’s bad enough that anyone worships a small, white, round wafer because it allegedly represents Christ.
Let’s see, we’ve had Apollinarians, adoptionists, Nestorians (in droves), now we’ve got iconoclasts. I wonder: how many other classical heresies will show up before this thread dwindles into oblivion?
This is just getting ridiculous. Now just TALKING to a saint is praying for them? How ludicrous is that?
When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, He didn't add any of the nonsense the Catholic church claims is prat of prayer or IS prayer.
Luke 11 1 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say:
“Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread, 4 and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”
Luke 11:9-13 9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Jesus Himself promised that God HIMSELF would answer our prayers TO HIM.
How can praying to saints even be justified without spitting in God's face about His integrity?
Still dodging.
The simple question is are those two paintings idols in your judgement.
The question before that was: Do you even know what an idol is?
Notice these are question only you can answer. Not a request for copy and paste, but your knowledge and judgement. The same that you use to declare others worship idols.
If you cannot be given examples and say whether they are idols or not and why, there is no reason for anyone to put any credence in your judgement of idols or idol worship.
From your dodging, it is obvious now that you don’t even know what an idol is.
Its not surprising that a catholic would not grasp this basic fact, but that is how it is.
After Jesus arose he had a bloodless, incorruptible body.
Thank you Brother. I think it speaks volumes that this clear Scriptural point is denied. We can only pray that some see the truth and will turn to Jesus rather than Mary.
Surely at least a proto-gnostic will appear. :)
Since it is the actual body and blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ we are worshipping Him. When I pray before a crucifix I know that is not really an actual deity. The crucifix on its own is without power, without the ability to grant boons or dispense blessings. It is however a reminder to me of the great suffering Our Lord endured for our salvation. It is an image but an image of what an artist thought the true God Incarnate, Jesus Christ looked like.
To me this issue was settled by the Iconoclast controversy which answered the concerns with the 2nd Commandment. If one holds to that commandment without exception one would be as restrictive as Muslims are supposed to be when it comes to depictions of the natural world as well as the constructed world. But we know God can not contradict Himself and in the fashioning of the Ark of the Covenant He even commands the depiction of images. So obviouly images are permitted. God would never allow the adoring of graven images so one must conclude that not all images are graven images.
The Book of Samuel describes King David and the people of Israel dancing before the Ark,
“He and all his men went to Baalah[a] in Judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the Name,[b] the name of the LORD Almighty, who is enthroned between the cherubim on the ark. 3 They set the ark of God on a new cart and brought it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab, were guiding the new cart 4 with the ark of God on it,[c] and Ahio was walking in front of it. 5 David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the LORD, with castanets,[d] harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals”
Now I ask you was David celebrating before a graven image because the Ark had carvings of cherubim on it? Or was it truly a sign that God Himself was amongst them.
“Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. 9 Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.”
Meaning that when King David danced before the Ark He was giving homage and adoration to the one True God?
Catholics and Orthodox take the latter view and apply it to Christ’s presence in the Eucharist and keep the consecrated Eucharist in the Tabernacle.
Now if you do not believe Christ is truly present and that the host is only unleavened bread it would indeed be a grave sin to adore it and to give it a place of honor. No question about that.
But Catholics and Orthodox hold that the Lord is truly present in the Eucharist. So we adore no false god but the Alpha and Omega, Himself.
I want to thank you for your civil tone despite are very real differences. I pray that God will always bless you with a heart fully turned towards Him in all you do.
>> “...in that her ‘yes’ to Christ was the means of His Incarnation without which He could not have wrought our salvation on the Cross” <<
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You are grossly mistaken.
The Bible records no ‘yes,’ just an announcement delivered by Gabriel, to the effect that she was with child, and that it was a sign of favor.
Just more convoluted Maryolatry.
>> “It is an image but an image of what an artist thought the true God Incarnate, Jesus Christ looked like.” <<
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Which is exactly what is forbidden by God’s word. - Its idolatry as defined in God’s word.
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