Does this count?
Posted on 11/29/2011 12:32:30 PM PST by SeekAndFind
Not my idea. I was just trying to fathom a way to explain it in atheist terms.
I believe you fail to put Scripture in the proper historical context. It was not written in the day and age that we live in, in which history is considered to be a sequential recitation of facts. Likewise genealogy — your statement about the genealogy book is certainly correct if the book was written in the past couple centuries, however if thegeneology book were written a couple millennia ago I would not only consider, but in fact suspect, that it would not be a literal recitation of my physical, genetic ancestors.
And it's all still just corn. I wonder when one of those is going to evolve into something really different. You'd think we'd be seeing that somewhere.
Popcorn’s cooling off a bit. No?
Hey metmom.....
I went back into my history and saw that I’ve jousted with allmendream a couple of other times over the past few years.
He’ll argue generalities but when asked specific questions he takes a powder.
Here’s a good one I asked him back in March of this year and I’m still waiting for an answer:
The Bull Giraffe goes, on average, about 18’ tall. His neck, again on average, is about 6’ long. In order to pump blood against gravity up 6’ of neck to his brain requires a heart like a jackhammer. The giraffe’s heart is about 2.5’ long.
So now this giraffe has got the heart pounding like sledge hammer and decides to bend down and get a drink. With the pump now going with gravity instead of against it, he has just blown his brains out.....but....in his arteries are little valves that shut down the flow of blood as he is bending over. The last valve though (and only the last valve) stays open and shoots the last squirt of blood into a sponge-like membrane that just happens to reside underneath the giraffe’s brain and absorbs the blood.
This, of course is extremely fortunate for the giraffe. As he’s drinking, he senses a predator and stands up quickly to run away. He then, from standing too quickly and having no blood flowing in his brain, passes out and gets eaten by the predator...but....this doesn’t happen because as he stands up, the sponge shoots blood to the brain, the valves reopen to resume the blood flow and the giraffe can flee the predator.
Michael Behe has referred to this in his book “Darwin’s Black Box” as irreducible complexity. In order for this morphology to work, all of the pieces have to be present at the same time.
The neck without the heart....dead.
The heart without the neck....dead.
The neck without the valves....dead.
All of the above without the sponge....dead.
In other words, the morphology of the giraffe requires that:
1. A jackhammer heart
2. A 6 foot long neck
3. Valves in the arteries that close when he’s bending (except the last one) and open when he’s standing.
4. A sponge under his brain
all be present at the same time or he’s dead meat. Or to put it another way, extinct. Is it more likely that the giraffe just happened to evolve all of these things at the exact same time or that he was created that way?
I’d really love to have his answer....
Blessings metmom.
Good discussions. I’ve just been lurking since my last post Wednesday.
Seems that after somebody got a long overdue warning about personal insults the postings stopped - hmmmm.
A little late but welcome aboard Schaef21. I lurked at FR about 10 years before I finally had to get involved in the creation evolution debates - around 2004 - which is when I’d also read Darwin’s Black Box.
Here’s a couple of other good creation sources I’ve gleaned over the years from fellow freepers.
Enjoy!
101 Evidences for a Young Age of the Earth...And the Universe
http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth
Center for Scientific Creation - In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/IntheBeginningTOC.html
The ToE only works as long as you are operating on an 19th century knowledge ignorance of science. You get into the cell and biochem and the whole concept falls apart like the house of cards it is. Honestly, the scientists of those days are brilliant compared to the hackers of today who are building on the frameworks of what these men learned and established in those relatively primitive conditions with their antiquated equipment. Men of science don't know how to think these days compared to their counterparts of years gone by.
Hi Metmom,
Speaking of the innner workings of the cell reminded me of the movie Expelled. They had some excellent computer animation, appropriated from Hardvard iirc, that showed the astonishing complexities at work.
” Men of science don’t know how to think these days compared to their counterparts of years gone by.”
They’re no longer taught to think, metmom.... It’s “take down what I’m telling you and regurgitate it back to me.”
You don’t even have to teach creation in public schools (and I would argue that they wouldn’t do it right anyway). Just tell the kids everything about ToE, warts and all and let them use a little logic.
Hey Brandt...
Thanks for the links.
I’m on creation.com a lot. They’ve got a ton of good info there.
Not familiar with the other link..... I’ll hit it, thanks.
And even with all man's intervention with animal husbandry and trying to improve strains of plants or animals, they've never done on purpose what they claim was done by accident (unintentionally in an unguided process), that is, totally new species.
The only way I've seen evos get around that is to redefine *species* to suit themselves.
You mean to tell me that a plant form has not mutated into a fish or dog or a bird?
Does this count?
Well now did this happen all by itself or was there a creator involved?
Hmmmm...I thought that was what the Old Testament was all about...a sequential recitation of facts chronicling the history of Israel painstakingly scribed by the Jews who scrupulously watched over the writings to ensure no mistakes were made. Nowadays we have CNN and Michael Moore to help us get history right. We certainly have progressed.
... if the genealogy book were written a couple millennia ago I would not only consider, but in fact suspect
If you are into genealogy like my wife is, then I'm not sure you would have made such a statement. It is very difficult to trace ancestors back 100 years let alone the past couple of centuries. Census records are not all they're crack up to be with erroneous dates and spelling of names.
But I think it's safe to say based upon your comments that you just don't believe in the scriptures whereas I'm convinced they are an accurate account of events. To say there is no literal Adam and Eve listed in scripture is not true. You just refuse to accept the genealogies listed in scripture as you have admitted.
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
"The first man Adam" can leave no doubt about a real, physical Adam if you believe the scriptures.
No doubt that the first man should be a man. But it is impossible for us to fit Adam in a time and place recognizable to us , for we do not know when and where or what Eden was. He fell as from a great height, much as Satan fell from heaven. Unlike Satan. however, he was not doomed to the pit.
Eden was given a specific location in scripture but many commentators are uncertain how the rivers joined and about the precise location. Undoubtedly Eden was destroyed and lost in the flood. To try to map it is impossible as the topography was changed.
Unlike Satan. however, he was not doomed to the pit.
You haven't seen the place where I work. ;O)
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