Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow
LOL, i will ignore the attacks on the Church to concentrate on what you didn’t repsond to, namely the doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
Christians have believed baptism is for the remission of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit ever since Peter preached the first Pentecost.
now, i understand a 16th century tradition of men is still followed to this day that says baptism is a “work”, it is done as a first act of obedience and it is an outward display of something that has happened inwardly already.
that all sounds good, except as hard i try, i can’t find Scripture to support it ( i am not alone, no one else believed this before the 16th century )
daniel, you seem to think you know the Bible pretty well, so i think you are just the man to help me out.
can you show where the Bible teaches the following:
1. that baptism is not for the remission of sins
2. that baptism is not for receiving the Holy Spirit
3. that baptism does not save us
4. that baptism does not place one “into Christ”
5. that baptism is done out of obedience
6. that baptism is a “work”
7. that baptism is an outward “sign” of the salvation that has occurred already.
8. that baptism is called “water baptism” anywhere in the NT
9. that baptism is called “spirit baptism” anywhere in the NT
10. that the NT teaches anywhere there are “two” baptisms for Christians and not one.
Let’s leave the attacks and polemics aside and see what the Scriptures teach about baptism and what it is.
Some Catholics don’t abide by it. The Church is full of good people and evil ones.
So you can’t paint the entire Catholic Church on the basis of a few bad apples.
The immorality among many of the clergy is an abomination, but it doesn’t shake my faith because I don’t place my faith in clerics.
There needs to be a cleaning of house like that after the Council of Trent when the corruption that occasioned the Protestant Revolution were uprooted.
This is what He had to say about it.....
Matthew 23
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so practice and observe whatever they tell you— but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
16"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18And you say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. 28So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matthew 15 1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." 3He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' 5But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, "What you would have gained from me is given to God," 6he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 8 "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 9in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
Defined as Scripture defines them.
I’ll do a search on things that have nothing in common. Apples and oranges my friend.
Mary IS NOT DIVINE, PERIOD!!!! I honor her as the Mother of our God who became the new Eve, but I don’t regard her as divine.
I think these verses you cite could have just as easily been applied to the spiritual pride of many Evangelical ministers.
>>For they preach, but do not practice. Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker anyone?
I learned baptismal regeneration from the Lutherans.
you and i both know that.
it’s amazing the number of people that have no idea what the Christian doctrine of baptism is.
Not to mention Joel Osteen, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, etc.
Defined as Scripture defines them - according to you.
There really is no way around it: you are only describing the true church of metmom.
Yeah, like a person is wanted for murder so that he can commit murder. That’s the way Catholics look at it right? Besides the word translated “for” actually means more “because of” just like the guy wanted for murder is “because” he committed murder. LOL
>> A “work” is something YOU DO ( giving to the poor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping an old lady across the street, excercising faith, etc ) these are examples of “works” in the Bible.<<
So that’s what Jesus meant here?:
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
isn’t it amazing that NO CATHOLIC ( latin or greek ) would ever believe or teach that Mary should be or can be worshipped.
Catholics have always taught Mary is a created human being and is in no way divine. Further Catholics have always taught and believed that the One True God, ( Father, Son and Holy Spirit ) is ALONE WORTHY AND DESERVING OF WORSHIP.
to worship anything else is IDOLATRY.
IDOLATRY would include worshipping any created being or statue or image, but it can also include WORSHIPPING “untruths” that are repeatedly told, even when the person has been corrected numerous times that they are untrue.
Of course you don’t. She was just sinless like Christ, omnipresent just like God, and sits on a throne in heave just like God, right?
Sounds like He was talking to the RCC doesn’t it?
They are filled with so much hatred for Catholicism that they will not listen to anything contrary to their prejudices.
Do what Jesus said and pray for them.
again no Scripture is provided that says baptism is not for the remission of sin.
there is a reason Christians have believed this for 2,000 years, the Apostles taught it and the Scriptures record it.
thank you for confirming that “faith” is a work and baptism is not. ( that is if you believe the Scriptures )
I never said there was. Do you not read my posts? Baptism is “for” the remission of sins just as a guy is arrested “for” murder. It had already happened.
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