Reformation Day – and What Led Me To Back to Catholicism

The Catholic Thing ^ | 10/28/11 | Francis J. Beckwith

[D-fendr]

We can continue on (and on) with St. Paul and intercessory prayer:

Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; and for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel for which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you…

For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding.

Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds: That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak.

Brethren, pray for us.

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you…

[D-fendr]

I think, based on my limited, though extensive participation on these recent threads that:

What is perceived as a denigration of the “personal relationship” part is, at least in my posts, not a diminishing of the importance of relationship with God, but the diminished relationship with Church, with others.

Some time ago, I think I phrased it as: “Just me and Jesus and Scripture, that’s all I need.”

Here’s the tie: Diminishing intercessory prayer diminishes our relationship with others in the Church. We don’t need them. “It doesn’t get any better than this.” etc.

However, IMHO, this is so contrary to Christ’s teaching as well as St. Paul’s. God desires and is pleased with our intercessions for each other, with our prayers for each other, with our sharing of both burdens and joys.

Being Christian means much more than a personal relationship with God; so much so that we cannot have a proper relationship with God without a proper relationship with His Church, the Body of Christ.

And this means, among many other things, praying for each other.

[D-fendr]

Mark,

I should have pinged you to the previous as it is a direct take–off of your discussion.

FWIW anyway.

[HossB86]

Well not after Dorothy's house lands on you.

Well, I'm sure it wouldn't be quite as much fun; I don't wear stripey socks. My feet might roll up, but no guarantee.

Just please tell me you're not wishing violence upon me...wouldn't that be a "mortal" sin??

Hoss

[Al Hitan]

Good catch. I don't think they even realize that they apply to scripture their own preconceptions.

Acts 2:47 - And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

CB - Those who are saved are part of the church.

[metmom]

Is it common for Protestants, or those in your pile on, to reject or diminish intercessory prayer?

No, but we pray FOR the living, not TO the dead or FOR the dead.

[metmom]

Where does Paul instruct us to pray to or for the dead?

[metmom]

He wrote that to and for real, live living people, not dead people.

[CynicalBear]

And according to the RCC evidently those people who are being added to the church daily should be told that it’s going to be a while before they are actually part of the church. It’s evidently a long process and not completed until death or something. I'll bet there are a lot of people sitting in those pews who think they are part of the church who didn't realize they are not.

[Iscool]

Besides, it doesn't say that Jesus didn't swap beers in each other's garage, so we can presume that He did.

I don't know that they had beer back then...But you can bet Jesus tipped a number of wine highballs on a regular basis...

And I'm sure he got pretty good at Texas Hold 'em...Bible doesn't say he didn't...

[Iscool]

Were being saved, not are saved. Since you are within the constraints of time, you are not saved until the Judge declares you saved.

Of course, Jesus again slaps you up side the head with scripture...

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

[Natural Law]

"Just please tell me you're not wishing violence upon me...

Of course I'm not. That was just the first mental image that came to mind when I read your post. And please don't call me a Munchkin.

[D-fendr]

we pray FOR the living,

Do you? Why?

Your posts indicate you don't believe in intercessions or at least their efficacy. You post such as: "Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are making intercession for us believers before God Himself. It doesn't get any better than that." Previous posts of yours posit the same point about our intercessions.

Does this post, the post I replied to not concern the living as well? If so, why then do you pray for the living?

[HossB86]

And please don't call me a Munchkin.

Fair enough. Scarecrow, maybe, but no Munchkin. ;)

Hoss

[metmom]

John 3:16-18 16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

1 John 5:11-15 11And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 14And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

[metmom]

Does poor reading comprehension come with being a Catholic?

Sheesh. Do try to focus and re-read what I posted.

[D-fendr]

I’ve read it several times and have the same questions.

How ‘bout indulging me and answering them?

[metmom]

Funny that those whose church is big on charitable works don’t seem to be big on doing it themselves at their own expense on their own property.

It’s got to be *helping* at church sponsored and paid for facilities.

You know what? I don’t have a problem hanging out at a bar having chicken wings and pizza when I can get a chance to share Christ with someone. Some church people flip over that.

Oh well, those people I shared Christ with there came to Christ.

[metmom]

OK. Again,....

Nowhere in Scripture are we instructed or encouraged to pray to anyone but God himself.

Any attempts at contact with dead people is prohibited by God Himself.

Time spend praying to dead people who nobody is even sure is in heaven, is time NOT spent praying to God.

Jesus commands us to pray and gives us an outline for praying and it is to GOD alone, nobody else.

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply but those weren’t the questions. This discussion is like ping–pong.

There are two issues involved: intercessory prayer by the living and does it apply to the Saints in Heaven (Communion of Saints). If you take the first off the table, the second is moot.

Whenever I focus on one, you jump to the other.

Ping–pong like.

Your post and my replies concerned intercessions/intercessory prayer. Your posts indicate you do not believe in it in some fashion. Either it’s not efficacious, not necessary, or we shouldn’t do it, praying only the Lord’s Prayer.

So, I’m trying to stick to this point to clarify whether the second is moot.

Back to the questions I asked about your post “we pray to the living.” Remember we’re trying to look only at the intercession part, for the living.

I asked: Do you pray for the living? Why?

I asked this because:
Your posts indicate you don’t believe in intercessions or at least their efficacy. You post such as: “Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are making intercession for us believers before God Himself. It doesn’t get any better than that.” Previous posts of yours posit the same point about our intercessions.

And i asked referring your post 738 (quoting St. Paul in Romans and Hebrews): Does this post, the post I replied to not concern the living as well? If so, why then do you pray for the living?

I can make it much simpler by asking along these lines: Do you believe our intercessions for (living) Saints are effective? Do they matter; help each other? Or are they useless, insignificant, of a tiny value, etc? Or should we *not* make intercessory prayers at all since we are only to use the Lord’s Prayer?

thank you...