Posted on 10/28/2011 6:59:29 AM PDT by markomalley
Your post still indicates you either do not understand what intercessory prayer is or you’re still mixing subjects up. Here, I will continue to try to stay on topic.
As to the cloud of witnesses, you’re welcome to your interpretation of course and you can imagine the Saints in Heaven excluded from the Body of Christ if you wish.
Likely you will also need a different interpretation for the fact that death does not separate us, for the family of God, one family in heaven and earth, the Transfiguration, the joy in heaven over one sinner that repents, that our God is the God of the living not the dead Christ having defeated death, etc.
All the saints are members of one body, the Body of Christ. Not two, but we are One as Christ prayed in the garden.
We do not cease to be part of the One Body upon our earthly death; because, again, Christ has defeated death. You cannot have one body if the majority of its members are separated from the rest. If that were the case, there would be two bodies and one would not affect the other.
However, we are told:
“And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.”
I don’t know if it is part of your theology or church, but the Nicene Creed is the fundamental statement of belief for Catholics and, I believe, a majority of Protestants. What has been lost is the meaning of Communion of Saints.
There can be no communion without union. To posit complete separation between any saints is de facto negation of the Communion of Saints.
The Church is the Body of Christ is the Communion of Saints. One body, many members, connected in communion.
thanks for your reply.
..or in the case of the RCC, THREE bodies. What about those who are “in Christ” in “purgatory”? “One family in heaven and earth”, and in purgatory?
No, not three bodies, not two bodies, but one body. Where we are as members of the Body of Christ does not sever our membership in the Body of Christ nor our relationship nor connection to and communion with all the other saints.
That’s the point of the whole post you replied to. Read it again if needed.
Really?
Matthew 11:18-19 18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."
And Luke 7:33-35
Matthew 9:10-12 10And as Jesus reclined at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. 11And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
Mark 2:15-17 15And as he reclined at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners were reclining with Jesus and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, "Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
Luke 5:29-31 29And Levi made him a great feast in his house, and there was a large company of tax collectors and others reclining at table with them. 30And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?"
Funny, I don't see anywhere in those passages where Jesus denied drinking with the tax collectors and sinners at their homes.
Besides, it doesn't say that Jesus didn't swap beers in each other's garage, so we can presume that He did.
Now prove he didn't.
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30because we are members of his body. 31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
NO!
Yuck.....
What? We wouldn’t look spiffy? ;)
You know I’m just kidding.
:D
Hoss
lol!
The confusion is not mine.
And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
This indicates praying to Saints is something that is taught to us by God's Word ... how???
You cannot have one body if the majority of its members are separated from the rest. If that were the case, there would be two bodies and one would not affect the other.
This teaches that we are to pray to anyone other than God....how?
You are very good at quoting scripture; however, the scripture you quote does not support your case! However, there are some very basic scriptures that DO indicate how to pray:
Matthew 6 -- "Pray then like this: Our Father....."
Not Mary.... not Saints, not Angels.
John 14 -- Christ tells about going to his Father -- and asking for things in his name.... not Saints, not Mary, not Angels. Not the Cloud of Witnesses.
Again, I ask: where in scripture does God teach us to pray to anyone OTHER than Him?
Hoss
Maybe you would.
;)
I’m sorry, the discussion you entered into was about intercessory prayer, specifically asking Saints for theirs prayers for us.
I thought I made that clear in my first, quite lengthy, reply.
You’ve participated in that discussion and include another, and now, it seems you are completely off on the other. To the other one:
Except in the cases using “pray” meaning ask, we are pray to God only. If, for example i pray to St. Mary saying “pray for us sinners now and in the hour of our death.” I mean I am asking St. Mary for her prayers on my behalf: her intercessory prayer.
I might also “pray’ to you for your intercessory prayers. The issue of whether we do so to saints in heaven as well as saints on earth is part of the discussion of the communion of saints, which was part of the intercessory prayer/communion of saints discussion you entered into with your first post to me.
And concerning which I spent considerable time going into the scripture, creed and theology; thinking that this was the topic you wished to engage in.
However, I can only guess at this point, you don’t wish to continue that discussion, meaning my time was wasted.
So... Nevermind.
Some think that the truth will be determined on these threads or if they can manage to drive the Catholics from the Forum. They couldn't be more wrong. As I reminded one of them earlier on this thread: The Truth is. It cannot be declared by you or your "church" (or what ever the gang you meet with on Sunday's calls itself), it is not determined by rules of evidence, convincing rhetoric, lame excuses, gotcha questions, ping-list dog-piles, precedent, moderators or errors in argument by Catholics. It simply is and is immutable. It doesn't require a psychic to predict that sometime in the next 50 years you will know the Truth.
Well not after Dorothy's house lands on you.
Matthew 8:20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."
The confusion is not mine.Debatable.
Yeah but I heard that if you wear the spiffy stuff and have a cool ring you become infallible if you just talk about doctrine and important stuff.
Romans 8:26-27 26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Hebrews 7:22-25 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. 23The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
St. Paul also wrote:
“I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people.”
Is it common for Protestants, or those in your pile on, to reject or diminish intercessory prayer?
Ah, modernists...
Then there is Christ’s direction to:
“pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven ”
I can only conclude you are in a minimalist mode for prayer as well.
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